Poll: Stop and Frisk

[rotor]

TAM, I can not compare a marijuana stop to a NYC stop and frisk for a gun. The concept may be the same but the results of allowing a thug to have a gun is not the same as allowing a teenager to have a joint. I know that constitutionally you are probably correct but there are levels of police action that may be tolerable although not desirable. Our government has done MUCH more to deprive us of our constitutional rights then the cop on the beat doing a search and frisk of a thug.

[The Annoyed Man]

In another thread, I said:

Whether or not Terry stops are a good idea, I'm not the definitive opinion. I'm uncomfortable with them, because I can see how that authority can easily be abused......but I also can see the utility of the practice from the law enforcement side well enough to understand that as long as it isn't abused, it can be another good tool in the LEO toolbox.........as long as it isn't abused and heavy handed.

I suppose that I should define that more clearly....

As I stated, I am generally speaking uncomfortable with the whole idea of it for 4th Amendment reasons; but I can also understand how, if legitimately applied, a Terry stop can be a useful tool in the law enforcement "armatorium" (a word taken from pharmaceuticals to describe an array of possible pharmaceutical choices in the treatment of certain diseases/symptoms). But it is also ripe for abuse, and whether or not it is abused depends entirely on the integrity of the officer using the tool..........just like an officer's use of his firearm, or his authority to drive Code 3, etc.

Unfortunately, I think that the temptation to abuse the authority is too prevalent. Someone above mentioned how on the "Cops" TV show, officers frequently use the "I smell marijuana" excuse to conduct a search. Well that is kind of under the "he who smelt it dealt it" fart accusation. I can claim that I smell a fart, that doesn't mean that the other person farted. It could just as easily mean that I farted........if I had ever even done such a vile thing in my entire life......and it could just as easily mean "there's no fart, but I'm going to falsely claim I smell one so that I can manufacture an excuse to search all up in your.....uh.....car's trunk. The "I smell marijuana" excuse to conduct a search just isn't something that qualifies as empirical evidence of anything at all. The "Cops" program only shows the stops where the officer did indeed actually smell marijuana. It's safe to say that they never show the episodes where a less than honorable cop used it as a phony excuse to conduct a search. And what can happen with a false claim of smelling marijuana when the cop doesn't find anything? Well, if he's really crooked, he'll plant some weed in your car to backup his phony claim. that way, you can't file a complaint against him.

So what does a "legitimate" Terry stop look like? "See that? There's a joint on your front seat, so I'm going to search your car. Take a seat on the curb."

The thing is, I honestly don't believe that most LEOs are that crooked. In fact, I would venture to say that the bad apples are outnumbered 500 to 1. But the ill will that just ONE bad officer can generate in a community is what I would call a force-multiplier for evil. Good law enforcement is too important to a just society to allow the one bad apple to stay employed on the taxpayer dime.

So while Terry may be a good tool in the honest cop's armatorium, maybe it is better to simply eliminate it so that it can't be abused by the bad ones. I don't claim to actually know if that would be a good idea or not. But what I do know is that it's too easy to abuse, and so it shouldn't be as easy to use as it is.

[Dave2]

It has nothing to do with "profiling".

I agree the government needs a reason to search your "stuff" and I pointed out that they are doing it now by gathering your phone records and who knows what else. That's why Snowden is in Russia. If a cop sees an individual that "looks like a bad guy that is probably carrying" is that not profiling? They probably don't frisk 80 year old ladies on crutches. And what about all those border patrol stops near the border with Mexico. I am sure that profiling discretion is used by those agents when they stop you. I am not saying that I like it but we all profile every day. I grew up in a bad neighborhood in NYC as a kid and I can tell you that I profiled people all the time. When I saw a bad guy coming down the street I immediately crossed the street or turned and went the other way. You get that tingly feeling when you know someone doesn't look right.

My opposition to "stop & frisk" still doesn't have anything to do with profiling.

[nightmare69]

It's a useful tool that NYC has used excessively. Leave it to the yanks to ruin it for the rest of LE.