Loss of property and your CHL?

[BoneDigger]

I realize that nobody likes "what if" scenarios. But, I have a question that I hope you guys can help me with. We often see gas stations and the such getting robbed, and occassionally someone gets shot, but in most cases there is no shooting. Some kid wants some fast cash for drugs or whatever, runs in, pulls a knife or gun, demands money and then splits.

So, lets say you are in a gas station/quickie mart and someone comes in and pulls a gun and demands money from the cashier. It seems likely from looking at the kid that he isn't planning to shoot anyone, he just wants his money. Would you draw your weapon, or just let the guy get the money and leave?

I realize as a CHL holder you can defend others if there is a risk of death, but where does that stop? I realize if a guy draws a weapon you may be able to safely assume he might use it, but if you have a feeling he won't then do you draw anyway to keep him/her from robbing the place, or on the assumption that he "might" shoot someone?

There was a robbery a while back on the news where while this one guy was robbing a store, the lady behind the desk had a heart attack. The robber didn't want anyone hurt so he even helped her call an ambulance. Just a guy down on his luck.

So what do you guys think?

Todd

[Mithras61]

I'd hunker down, keep an eye on him, and call 911. I'd do my very best to be an unimpeachable witness, too. IF I though he was intending to shoot, I might take more drastic action, but unless he was threatening me or mine, I probably wouldn't engage him.

[HighVelocity]

It seems likely from looking at the kid that he isn't planning to shoot anyone, he just wants his money

Mistake #1. NEVER assume what someone will do. You will almost always be wrong.

I do agree with you on this point:

but unless he was threatening me or mine, I probably wouldn't engage him.

If that moment comes, you'll have to decide right there what you're going to do. For now, you know some options but unless it happens for real, you just don't know what the best option is.

[jimlongley]

I don't know how to determine if someone holding a gun does or doesn't mean to shoot, with any reliability that is. If someone has a gun drawn the only assumption I am going to make is that he means to use it.

Based on the scenario given, if I was far enough out of his line of vision that I did not feel endangered, I would probably seek concealment, and possibly even draw and cover him, but if the gun was anywhere near pointing at me, all bets are off. I would be assessing tactical and strategic options and it's very possible that I might feel endangered enough to shoot first and ask questions later.

I'm with HighV, there is no set piece solution to situations like this.

[ScubaSigGuy]

That's a tough one. I have always been of the mindset that if someone pulls a gun and points it at someone they are going to use it. What I assume is irrelevant because there isn't time for assumptions outside of this forum.

That being said I have zero doubts about my actions to protect my framily and close friends.

[Mike1951]

You're also assuming that the robber is ALONE!

One of the greatest risks in a situation like this is another BG(s) that you didn't see.

Make sure of your surroundings before taking any action.

[TX Rancher]

Ask the guy “Is that the new version of the Sig. Which one did you get, the 9mil or 40 cal? I hear they’re real accurate and the action is as smooth as a babies behind! I’ve been thinking of picking one up myself. What type of ammo do you feed it? I hear they’re kind of heavy though, can I hold yours…�

Ok, maybe that’s not what I would really do.

If I’m not in his line of sight, then like jimlongley said, move to cover and draw. Then I would use my weak hand to call 911.

If I’m in his line of sight, but the weapon is aimed at the clerk, then I would probably do nothing but become a sheep and a good witness unless I thought he was going to shoot the clerk. I know I don’t know for sure what he will do, but most robberies end without the clerk getting shot, and I could make the situation worse by drawing.

If he does shoot the clerk, then go to guns...

If the gun is aimed at me, get off the X, and go for my weapon or him depending on distance, his stance, available cover, his size/strength, etc. I’m not happy with having to draw against the drop, but I’m not happy with being shot while just standing there either.

Mike1951 mentioned the risk of multiple BG's...good point and if you can it would be a good idea to check your surrondings, including your six.

This all assumes I’m there without my wife…if she’s there my actions would be dictated by her safety.

And just for the record Todd, I for one like scenarios. Reading how others would respond, and the discussion of legal issues associated with those actions, is very informative for me.

[JLaw]

Maybe scenarios like this aren't all that bad to ponder over in our heads. Lets us think about what our priorities are. First and foremost, I'll expose the priorities I set for myself when I first got my CHL:
#1- Avoid the confrontation if at all possible, otherwise
#1A- Protection of family then self
#2- Protection of others (if legal & justifiable etc, etc, etc)
#3- Protection of property (hey man, we pay a lot for insurance, why not let it work for us?)

Hmmm, lots of wisdom in HV's post and others here...how do you know the guys not going to shoot? Going by the priorities above, I'd hopefully be reading the actions of the BG and adjusting my actions accordingly, but my first thought was seek cover and draw, call 911 with description of BG, monitor situation and adjust actions accordingly to where if the BG becomes more hostile towards the clerk then engage BG if neccessary. Maybe that makes me sound like I'm playing cop here, but that was my initial thought.

Here's the problem with my scenario, like others have previously pointed out...the BG has the gun pointed at the clerk, right? I'd venture to say most people un-trained with firearms will probably have their finger on the trigger, and this BG is probably very nervous. Could be a bad situation.

JLaw

[Lodge2004]

Here's the problem with my scenario, like others have previously pointed out...the BG has the gun pointed at the clerk, right? I'd venture to say most people un-trained with firearms will probably have their finger on the trigger, and this BG is probably very nervous. Could be a bad situation.

Or it could be something other than what I am perceiving as a bad situation, i.e. -

• The BG is the clerk's roomate who is playing a (stupid) prank on him.
  The BG and the clerk are brothers who agreed to the robbery and then split the money.
  The BG is a stone cold killer.
  The BG is the local honor student who did this on a (stupid) dare to join a fraternity.

Bottom line is it's virtually impossible to be sure. About the only two scenarios where I know that I would engage without hesitation are are:

• BG has targeted me or my family.
  BG is on a murderous rampage (i,e. Cho at Virginia Tech or Luby's in Killeen).

[Renegade]

Would you draw your weapon, or just let the guy get the money and leave?

How do you know that is his plan? How do you know his plan is not to killall the witnesses after he gets the money? Or just shoot them "for the fun of it?" You seem to have serious pre-conceived notions about armed criminals.

As for me, I will do whatever I think is best for me and my family.

[BoneDigger]

I have in no way stated what I would have done, so I am not sure what you mean about pre-conceived notions. I am simply asking a question. If it were me, I would probably duck behind an isle and hope he didn't see me, draw my gun, and hope I don't have to use it. I would however, assume that he knew who is in the store before he pulled his gun. It would therefore be likely that he would demand that I step to his front, so he can keep an eye on me.

It's a tough call, and that's why I asked. Do you assume the worse and act accordingly, or do you poder intentions before acting?

Todd

[dihappy]

Good queston Bone,

IF you assume the worst, BG could be dead.

If you ponder you could be dead.

[austin]

Get your hand on your pistol so you can respond if need be.

Create distance and/or seek cover.

Dont lose sight of the bad guy.

Look for his buddies.

Don't dial 911 with your gun hand.

[CHL/LEO]

Todd posted:

Just a guy down on his luck.

I hope you were just being sarcastic and not serious...

Renegade posted:

How do you know that is his plan? How do you know his plan is not to killall the witnesses after he gets the money? Or just shoot them "for the fun of it?"

Exactly, click on the following link to see what some wackos will do even when people do cooperate: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... a442f.html

[Big Calhoun]

Very tough call. For me, a gun in the situation escalates everything because of the suddeness at which the scenario could worsen. Personally, my initial preference is to just observe and try to remember as much information as possible. Of course, as the situation changes, my response could change, but that would be my first overall priority.

One of the reasons I don't go into gas stations...just slide the card.