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someone walks down the aisle past you with a pistol at their side, intently focused on the altar/stage area. You're sitting with your wife and kids. Full house, if the armed person turns around, its a target rich environment.

What do you do?

I sit on the aisle seat about 1/3 from the back of the church with my wife and kids to my right. It's an amphitheater shaped church with pews arranged in a half circle around the altar area.


I'm curious what your thoughts on this type of situation are.

Depends on if the person had the collection plate in the other hand; e.g., taking up the offering.

How do you know what their intentions are? You can jump them but how do you know they mean harm?

Well, without going into a lot of detail. At our church he would be confronted, by the time he reached the altar a minimum of 4 plain clothes officers would have keyed on him and radioed a 5th who is sitting 3 rows from the altar. IF none of them recognized him as an officer within the church he would be escorted to a designated safe room. IF he resisted or reached for his weapon, he would be handled quickly and appropriately. In the mean time other members of the team are watching to see if this is a diversion or if others are acting suspicious.

What does "at his side" mean?

holstered or holding it in one hand?

One guy gets tackled and/or shot...

One guy gets whatched

gigag04 wrote:What does "at his side" mean?

holstered or holding it in one hand?

One guy gets tackled and/or shot...

One guy gets whatched

Sorry, didn't realize I had written it that way last night. I meant drawn and in his hand, but not pointed at anyone yet.

Not open carry.

Person is past you position already since sitting in the pew you didn't see him approach from behind.

TxSheepdog wrote:someone walks down the aisle past you with a pistol at their side, intently focused on the altar/stage area. You're sitting with your wife and kids. Full house, if the armed person turns around, its a target rich environment.

TxSheepdog wrote:

gigag04 wrote:What does "at his side" mean?

holstered or holding it in one hand?

One guy gets tackled and/or shot...

One guy gets whatched

Sorry, didn't realize I had written it that way last night. I meant drawn and in his hand, but not pointed at anyone yet.

Well, unless someone in these forums can point to a scenario where any person can legally behave in that manner, I'll consider him to be a deadly threat and act accordingly: shoot him.

Let me say from the get-go, that I cannot envision a law enforcement officer acting in that manner. They would be either in uniform or announcing their status and what is going on. I cannot think of any way that is legal for a CHL to behave.

However, I have also heard all the stories about intervening in a 3rd party situation where what appears to be happening is not what is really happening. For example, the man "attacking" the young woman was really an undercover officer arresting her.

So my mind is open: someone point to a scenario where someone could be walking down the aisle during a church service with a pistol in their hand and not be a deadly threat. Unless I can be convinced one exists, I would shoot the guy.

someone walks down the aisle past you with a pistol at their side

That would be about half the people at my church.
Is the armed person the 79 year old CHL woman with her pistol in her purse at her side or the 68 year old retired LEO whose shirt came untucked? or the Pastor or a deacon who is putting a spare pistol next to the water pitcher? (kidding, but they might in some churches, since essentially they have control of the property/"premises under the person's control" under chapter 46)

I don't think anyone in my denomination of central Texas churches would be upset seeing a pistol, I know most in my church swap pistols or take range trips after Sunday lunch, in fact, in a church in North Texas, I know they sometimes ask to see things in the Sanctuary. (The deacons, Pastor and their wives were curious how the Glock 26 Internal laser worked ... The kids hardly looked up from their coloring books and the woman breastfeeding her kid in the Sanctuary didn't look at all disturbed seeing a pistol either.)

At any rate, to answer the question, if it's one of the 93 year old ladies, I might walk beside her since the heavy guns might make them lean to one side a little and they are stubborn ole ladies and don't use a cane yet. I'd hate to see one fall.

gigag04 wrote:What does "at his side" mean?

holstered or holding it in one hand?

One guy gets tackled and/or shot...

One guy gets watched

Last Sunday at Church my XD45 and 4 loaded mags were at my side, but CONCEALED in the plastic XD45 pistol case which has a big sticker that says Springfield XD45, Not legal in California high capacity magazines (13 rounds each) I loaned it to a retired LEO/CHL to shoot at the range when he gets time.

When another Deacon with a CHL asks to borrow a Glock to take to the range, I usually conceal them in that black tupperware box that has a sticker that says Glock on it.

TxSheepdog wrote:

gigag04 wrote:What does "at his side" mean?

holstered or holding it in one hand?

One guy gets tackled and/or shot...

One guy gets whatched

Sorry, didn't realize I had written it that way last night. I meant drawn and in his hand, but not pointed at anyone yet.

Not open carry.

Person is past you position already since sitting in the pew you didn't see him approach from behind.

Ok,
1) I sit the second row from the front (I prefer a LOT of wooden pews between me and any bullet from the rear of the church) and, no one comes in the back door of the sanctuary without me (everyone) knowing it; in every church I've been to since the 1950s, the rear Sanctuary door everyone enters is noisy.
2) drawn and in his hand ... I'd raise my attention level; notice HOW they carried (finger in trigger guard?) holding with 2 fingers by the grip? ... but depends on A) who is carrying it and B) their body language, perhaps they found it outside on the trunk of someone's car or the ground and are carrying it in a hurry up to the Pastor so it can be safely secured so a kid doesn't get ahold of it...

ok, now to what I think you meant

If a person with evil intent ...came into our church... displaying a weapon... in a threatening manner (or recklessly)

They'd be stopped and the weapon removed from their reach. Probably by myself or another church member or one of their relatives or a combination of persons.

There are just way too many variables not addressed to know how to act.
1) what's the culture of the church... like mentioned above, it may not be uncommon to see and if someone 'found' a gun they may feel comfortable just walking with it
2) his body language
3) his facial expression
4) what's happening at that moment? Is it in the middle of a sermon or in between activities when it's more normal to have someone walking down an aisle
5) walking slowly or quickly?
6) How is he dressed? Like he attends or walked in off the street? (I find that footwear tells you a lot about someone at the moment)
7) Is he talking at all?
8) Does the church have security of its own? (our church has men in suits, armed and watching... secret service-like... most are police officers as a day job)

There are other factors too...for instance, there's almost no angle to take a shot at my church without having a choir member, church member, or staff in the line of fire.

If I truly thought he was a threat, and it was physically possible, I'd most likely rush him from behind and grab the wrist with the weapon and bring him down. I'd expect others would join, but you can't count on it.

I can say this... regardless... it's a true nightmare scenario.

There's a fair possibility that I'm on stage when this happens. I'll do whatever I have to do......including shoot/not-shoot. When I'm not on stage, I sit near the back of the congregation. Same thing applies.

I would sure want to know his intent before I shot him in the middle of a bunch of people on a sunday morning. What you see you cannot unsee and I wouldn't want a child to witness that type of violence in a place of worship. If I thought his intent was evil I would disarm him by any means possible. Usually when someone has a gun in their hand like that they are preparing for trouble.

That is a really crappy situation waiting for all mayhem break loose.

Purplehood wrote:That is a really crappy situation waiting for all mayhem break loose.

Agreed... bad from the get-go

When I was 16 I was in the middle of gunfire in a mall shooting (gang related, I was a by standard) and luckily no one died. A few people were hit and it was a bloody scene and a huge panic. I remember seeing kids a prego woman with a stroller around. While the few seconds of gunfire went on it was like no one realized what what going on and were frozen. Then right after people were screaming and running. It happened right in front of a chick fillet that was opened up into the mall so lots of families were eating right there or in line to get food along with huge glass windows (a couple got bullets thru them) and traffic from shoppers it was a lot of people.

Anyway, point is, I have thought back to the situation and what I would do now. I think it went down too fast to change anything and collateral damage was luckily very little. Adding another shooter to the situation may have very well added to the damage. I have seen other violence since then but no situation so helpless feeling. I hope it never happens in a church.