http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=232051
See my comments in this thread about my CHL instructor. I took the class from a man named Jim Hoge of Collectors Firearms in Houston about 3 years ago. He is the CHL instructor that related this info to me. Some of his co-workers told me similar info about the gun being exposed in the grocery store.
My CHL instructor in Houston told me that if you for instance have a snubbie in your pocket and you lift your leg or sit down to where the pocket pulls tight around the gun and prints through then you are still legally concealed. As long as you are making a reasonable effort to conceal it then I understand that it is even legally okay if you have a gun on under your jacket and are in the grocery store and reach up to the top shelf to grab something and briefly expose your gun. I was told, by men who work with my CHL instuctor at the same store, that they amended the law to where as long as you are making "a reasonable effort" to conceal it, then you are okay.
NOW, having said that, I would minimize this happening as much as possible. I even though legal, I don't want anyone to find out if I am carrying.
I have related this info before and gotten blasted about it by other CHL people who were told the exact opposite (as seen in this thread).
I realize that you can ask 5 different people 1 question and get 5 different answers, but what exactly is the truth of the matter?
Re: Question about printing or buldging in Texas
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:47 pm
by txinvestigator
Doug.38PR wrote:http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=232051
See my comments in this thread about my CHL instructor. I took the class from a man named Jim Hoge of Collectors Firearms in Houston about 3 years ago. He is the CHL instructor that related this info to me. Some of his co-workers told me similar info about the gun being exposed in the grocery store.
My CHL instructor in Houston told me that if you for instance have a snubbie in your pocket and you lift your leg or sit down to where the pocket pulls tight around the gun and prints through then you are still legally concealed. As long as you are making a reasonable effort to conceal it then I understand that it is even legally okay if you have a gun on under your jacket and are in the grocery store and reach up to the top shelf to grab something and briefly expose your gun. I was told, by men who work with my CHL instuctor at the same store, that they amended the law to where as long as you are making "a reasonable effort" to conceal it, then you are okay.
NOW, having said that, I would minimize this happening as much as possible. I even though legal, I don't want anyone to find out if I am carrying.
I have related this info before and gotten blasted about it by other CHL people who were told the exact opposite (as seen in this thread).
I realize that you can ask 5 different people 1 question and get 5 different answers, but what exactly is the truth of the matter?
I agree with your instructor. Here is the LAW;
§46.035. Unlawful carrying of handgun by license holder.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
The first post in the thread you linked about Texas is wrong.
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:28 pm
by carlson1
with TX.
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:22 pm
by Pickpocket
Yup - you are still "legally" concealed and are, therefore, protected under the law as long as you did not INTENTIONALLY fail to conceal the handgun.
However, that does not mean that the people who saw you "print" won't call the cops ;)
Re: Question about printing or buldging in Texas
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:05 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
txinvestigator wrote:I agree with your instructor. Here is the LAW;
§46.035. Unlawful carrying of handgun by license holder.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
The first post in the thread you linked about Texas is wrong.
The portion of the Code txinvestigator quoted in large bold print is very unusual in Texas criminal law. The usual mental state (mens rea) required for a conviction is "intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly," but TPC 46.035(a) requires intentional conduct. The lesser standards of "knowingly, or recklessly" will not support a conviction. This is somewhat unique in criminal statutes and is probably why so many people get this wrong and why even many in law enforcement miss this distinction.
Chas.
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:22 pm
by flintknapper
Pickpocket wrote:Yup - you are still "legally" concealed and are, therefore, protected under the law as long as you did not INTENTIONALLY fail to conceal the handgun.
However, that does not mean that the people who saw you "print" won't call the cops ;)
I'm betting that a smart lawyer and the right jury could ruin your day on this one.
If I leave the house in a thin T-Shirt and my weapon "Prints", it could be reasonably argued that any intelligent person should have known that it would. "I didn't INTEND for it to show" probably has a high end as a defense.
In cases where your manner of dress...or activities could be expected to reveal your weapon, then I submit you "Intended" to do so by reason of neglect.
I don't believe we can afford to play dumb, dress anyway we want...and then plead "It wasn't my intention" if we get called out on the carpet.
While it may not end in a conviction, it is not good PR for concealed carry.
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:46 pm
by stevie_d_64
flintknapper wrote:I don't believe we can afford to play dumb, dress anyway we want...and then plead "It wasn't my intention" if we get called out on the carpet.
While it may not end in a conviction, it is not good PR for concealed carry.
150%
My "mens rea" is always to be as reasonably compliant to the law...
But I cannot control the "mens rea" of another person...
I believe the Texas CHL community does pretty well overall, in maintaining concealment, per the law...
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:03 pm
by lrb111
For me this is one of those areas similar to getting asked for ID. I'll gladly show my driver's licence, and CHL when asked. Even if i'm not carrying.
Same way with printing. I know it's printing with knowledge that is the problem, but I want to go the extra step and be sure i'm not printing.
Here's my hero.
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:07 pm
by carlson1
lrb111 wrote:
That is amazing. He has a small from also.
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:19 pm
by lrb111
carlson1 wrote:
lrb111 wrote:
That is amazing. He has a small frame also.
That guy spurred me to use the smart remark: " The question is not whether or not I'm carrying, but rather, "How many?"
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:16 am
by seamusTX
I think he would have had a little trouble walking, though.
- Jim
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:51 am
by nb4zot
Hogue was my instructor as well about 6 months ago.
He told me the same thing.
He also said he carries three guns on him at all times [/img]
Re: Question about printing or buldging in Texas
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:00 pm
by cxm
I don't intend to nit-pick, but while you would not be "concealed" you are not violating the law... so the effect of what the instructor said is correct.
Of course concealed is concealed... but accidents happen... just have to be careful...
FWIW
Chuck
Doug.38PR wrote:http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=232051
See my comments in this thread about my CHL instructor. I took the class from a man named Jim Hoge of Collectors Firearms in Houston about 3 years ago. He is the CHL instructor that related this info to me. Some of his co-workers told me similar info about the gun being exposed in the grocery store.
My CHL instructor in Houston told me that if you for instance have a snubbie in your pocket and you lift your leg or sit down to where the pocket pulls tight around the gun and prints through then you are still legally concealed. As long as you are making a reasonable effort to conceal it then I understand that it is even legally okay if you have a gun on under your jacket and are in the grocery store and reach up to the top shelf to grab something and briefly expose your gun. I was told, by men who work with my CHL instuctor at the same store, that they amended the law to where as long as you are making "a reasonable effort" to conceal it, then you are okay.
NOW, having said that, I would minimize this happening as much as possible. I even though legal, I don't want anyone to find out if I am carrying.
I have related this info before and gotten blasted about it by other CHL people who were told the exact opposite (as seen in this thread).
I realize that you can ask 5 different people 1 question and get 5 different answers, but what exactly is the truth of the matter?
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:50 pm
by Pickpocket
flintknapper wrote:
I'm betting that a smart lawyer and the right jury could ruin your day on this one....
...I don't believe we can afford to play dumb, dress anyway we want...and then plead "It wasn't my intention" if we get called out on the carpet.
While it may not end in a conviction, it is not good PR for concealed carry.
Agreed. I've always like the saying "You might beat the rap but you're still gonna pay for the ride."
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:44 pm
by Commander
I'm going to bring this up at the risk of sounding stupid, but....
"Printing"? When someone sees a "print" what are they seeing? A gun? A cellphone? A PDA, a leatherman tool? A medical device? (such as an insulin pump). Personally, I think that someone would be hard pressed to swear that the lump they see under my shirt is a gun. Yeah, I may have a gun on, but its in my jacket pocket, the lump is my two cellphones on my belt. So far I have not worried about "printing". Maybe some of you might convince me otherwise, but I don't consider it a serious issue. Do I take it too lightly?
Guess I'll step back now and see what kind of responses I get.
with TX.
