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Do Federal Gun Free Zone rules apply at private religious schools property? I was attanding a private function at the church the other night and realized that they have a school during the day. The church is not posted 30-06.

Title 18 U.S.C. §921(25) The term “school zone” means— (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school. (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

Is the law saying that because a school function is held there M-F 8-4 that one cannot enter the property on Sunday morning to attend church with a concealed handgun?

Sorry if the answer is apparent to all but I want to be very clear about where and when I can carry legally.

Yes, great question.
I attend regular weekly services but never thought about the childrens pre-school we have there because it is only held during normal business hours.

The federal "gun free school zone" law does not apply to a person who has a concealed handgun license from that state:

18 USC 922(q)(1) Federal Gun-Free School Zones

(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm--

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

That's the good news.

The bad news is that a school is a prohibited place under Texas PC 46.03(a)(1), and it is a felony to carry a weapon there regardless of whether classes are being conducted at the time.

Also school is not defined in the statute or case law, although it seems generally agreed that day care and pre-school are not schools for this purpose.

The remedy to the bad news is that the school administration can grant permission to specific persons or a class of persons (such as CHL holders or members of the school shooting team) by written policy.

- Jim

So we have a situation where a building (premises) with no 30.06 posting has multiple use...part of the time it is a church, part of the time it is a school. Is it really correct to say that the school use overrides the church use, particularly if the school use is a smaller percentage of time than church use? Is this like a restaurant that serves alcohol but is not 51%?

No doubt there is no case law yet, but it seems to me this is a potential trap for a licensed concealed-carrying church member/attender who's unaware the premises is used as a school 40-50 hours a week.

Another not so obtuse issue: What about the adult CHL holder who carries when teaching the 4th grade Sunday School class in a church building?

Ask your DA. He is the one who would be approving charges.

I don't mean to be sarcastic. I wouldn't arrest anyone for carrying in a school or something maybe like a school if I could. It's not my job responsibility.

This question about what is a school has been around forever. Is a barber college a prohibited place? How about a dog obedience school?

The law is very clear on 51% premises: Carrying a weapon there is illegal whether or not the business is open or serving alcoholic beverages at the time (except for the business owner or manager). It is not a time-share issue.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:Ask your DA. He is the one who would be approving charges.

The law is very clear on 51% premises: Carrying a weapon there is illegal whether or not the business is open or serving alcoholic beverages at the time (except for the business owner or manager). It is not a time-share issue.

- Jim

Sorry, I wasn't clear about what I meant by bringing up 51% businesses. Not that it matters anyway due to the lack of definition of "school" in the law and the lack of case law (AFAIK).

However, to try to clarify, I was not trying to say 51% is determined by the percentage of use of the building the business is in. The law is very clear. Rather, I was trying make an analogy. So here's the attempted analogy: Like the percentage of sales of alcohol determines if it's illegal to carry at any time in the business, so the percentage of use of a building by a school might determine legality of carrying when the building is not being used for schooling. (But we know there is nothing in the law about it.)

We have here two examples of the "right" way and the wrong way to make law.

PC 46.03 says,

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

The terms school or educational institution are not defined in the penal code, so we are left with general dictionary definitions. That gets back to whether a dog obedience school is a school under this law. (I doubt that it is, BTW, but I am not a DA or judge.)

PC 46.035(b)(1) is very specific about prohibiting carry in a 51% establishment (bar) versus a restaurant that serves alcoholic drinks or a store that sells packaged alcoholic beverages.

This is a big improvement over some other states, where weapons are prohibited in any place that sells alcoholic beverages in any way, shape, or form.

(I would get rid of PC 46.035 completely if I were king for a day, but I'm not and won't be.)

- Jim

If the building is built as a school, then it is always a school. Example, a public elementary school leases out their location for a church to meet on Sunday, but it is still a school and off limits.

It gets a little dicey on privates schools, especially ones connected with a church. If the building is a church and only used for a school part time, then I would say it is a church building on Sunday. If there are dedicated classrooms that are only for the school, and they are isolated, then my view would be to stay out of that section and only stay in the 'church' area.

Another thing to check is if they are an accredited school with the Texas Private School Accreditation Commission http://tepsac.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. There is no legal case law that I am aware of, but if they are not an accredited school, then IMO (I am NOT a lawyer and this is NOT legal advice) then they are not off limits.

Keith B wrote: Another thing to check is if they are an accredited school with the Texas Private School Accreditation Commission http://tepsac.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. There is no legal case law that I am aware of, but if they are not an accredited school, then IMO (I am NOT a lawyer and this is NOT legal advice) then they are not off limits.

The problem is that private schools are not regulated in Texas and therefore do not have to be accredited. A.K.A. Home schools are considered private schools.

That is so crazy. Our CHL and gun laws seem to be written to entrap gun owners and especially CHL holders. We have preemption to do away with confusing laws across the state. Why do we accept this complex web of laws that are going to get us slammed under an unfriendly state government? The Republicans are going to drag their feet this session and lose power because of it and we will have NO chance of defending even the little privileges we have bought.

shootthesheet wrote:That is so crazy. Our CHL and gun laws seem to be written to entrap gun owners and especially CHL holders. We have preemption to do away with confusing laws across the state. Why do we accept this complex web of laws that are going to get us slammed under an unfriendly state government? The Republicans are going to drag their feet this session and lose power because of it and we will have NO chance of defending even the little privileges we have bought.

These laws have been this way for 15 years on schools. And gray areas are not exclusive to CHL laws; they are just a fact of the legal system. Personally I don't see that they are that gray on schools in general, just those that may be sharing facilities. In those cases, the individual has to make the call on if their location is predominately a school or something else.

So, since you are up in arms about the laws, my question to you is 'Have you written to your Senator and Representative and requested their support on the pending legislation that is out there currently?' I know my State Rep has signed on to both house bills (parking lot and campus carry) and I have written a nice note thanking him for the support. Also wrote my Senator politely asking that she show her support, as she has done in the past, for the firearms bills that have been introduced in the Senate and requested she sign on to them. I also politely asked that if the House bills get a jump on the ones in the Senate and make it through first, that she support those.

Politely encouraging them to support your interests usually go a long way in letting them know we are out here and what we would like to see changed. Ranting on an Internet forum about the laws doesn't accomplish anything.

Keith B wrote:

shootthesheet wrote:That is so crazy. Our CHL and gun laws seem to be written to entrap gun owners and especially CHL holders. We have preemption to do away with confusing laws across the state. Why do we accept this complex web of laws that are going to get us slammed under an unfriendly state government? The Republicans are going to drag their feet this session and lose power because of it and we will have NO chance of defending even the little privileges we have bought.

These laws have been this way for 15 years on schools. And gray areas are not exclusive to CHL laws; they are just a fact of the legal system. Personally I don't see that they are that gray on schools in general, just those that may be sharing facilities. In those cases, the individual has to make the call on if their location is predominately a school or something else.

So, since you are up in arms about the laws, my question to you is 'Have you written to your Senator and Representative and requested their support on the pending legislation that is out there currently?' I know my State Rep has signed on to both house bills (parking lot and campus carry) and I have written a nice note thanking him for the support. Also wrote my Senator politely asking that she show her support, as she has done in the past, for the firearms bills that have been introduced in the Senate and requested she sign on to them. I also politely asked that if the House bills get a jump on the ones in the Senate and make it through first, that she support those.

Politely encouraging them to support your interests usually go a long way in letting them know we are out here and what we would like to see changed. Ranting on an Internet forum about the laws doesn't accomplish anything.

And I need to get going and do the same with my two more liberal Austin area senator and rep. Since I'm in Austin, I also need to drive down to the capitol and say so in person.