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Well, since my last thread got hijacked, and it really turned into a great debate, I'm curious: When do you turn back? What's your reasoning behind your decision? I'm still fairly green to the whole subject, but I'm of the frame of mind that it's pretty black and white, so 30.06 or bust. BUT, I want to hear y'all's thoughts.

30.06 or 51%...everything else I ignore.

LEGAL 30.06 or Clearly 51% establishment for me. I carry right past non-compliant signs.

I'd just stay legal.

What do you mean by "it looks close to a 30.06"? Are you saying that if it is 99% correct, but one little mistake that you would ignore it?

I don't see many signs at all where I go. I think the last time I saw one outside of a gun show was at a hospital and it wasn't on every entrance. I think it was even posted inside the lobby rather than at the door. I guess I just don't want to serious risk having to defend myself in court. It costs too much to be worth it to me.

The only non-compliant 30.06 posting I have came across was at an AMC 30 Theater. Letters were 1/4 to 1/2 an inch at best. Not to mention it could be argued that the signs weren't in a easy noticed place ( Bottom corner of half the doors. ) and glass could be argued as not a contrasting background. Went right past them and kept quiet about it. No problems there.

shortysboy09 wrote:

MechAg94 wrote: What do you mean by a partial 30.06?

I think he means a 30.06 that doesn't fit the criteria to be legal. Such as, Letters are incorrect size, wording isn't right, or not printed in English or Spanish.

I edited my last post. I guess I would play it by ear. I would not probably walk past a sign that was very close.

As for other signs, I don't even notice them most of the time. I see 51% signs way more than others.

Interesting. Everyone so far has voted the "correct" way. I can't imagine anyone on this forum "breaking the law" or letting a non-compliance sign deter them from carrying. For the record, we have a restaurant in Victoria that has flip-flopped on a 51% sign for the last few years. Sometimes it's up, sometimes it's down. There where times I carried without noticing it was up. It has been down for some time now, well over 6 months, and there's no way it was legal. This is a true restaurant, the bar is small and doesnt stay busy.

I will not carry past a sign when doing so would be illegal .

So in general that means:
- 30.06 signs that are exactly as described in the statute
- 51% signs that are posted in a location where TABC has determined that 51% of the gross sales are from sale of alcohol for on premises consumption.

Also, won't carry in places where it is illegal under Texas or Federal law, regardless of whether they have a sign.

As in the last thread, Improper sign outside medical facility, there were posts about how many wouldn't even walk past a gun busters sign, just because they won't give money to a business that would ban CHLee's. Personally, I don't want to be the test case if someone were to make my weapon.

I'd go with the "close to a 30.06" option... nitpicking situations, like whether letters are 1" high when they're imperceptibly close at a casual glance, get the benefit of the doubt from me, unless the sign itself is posted in a location which is inherently unenforceable (public property, etc.). Moreso, a gunbuster sign is enough for me when I know it reflects the honest wishes of the property owner himself/herself, because if we want credibility with the public when we talk about "protecting our rights," we need to give as good as we expect to get. The fact that something would be legally unenforceable and keep me out of prison doesn't make it correct.

Likewise, when a badly-posted sign is clearly the boilerplate for a corporate lawyer trying to safeguard a low insurance premium, I consider it not reflecting any more honest intention than a gun manufacturer stamping "don't point towards face" on the barrel

denwego wrote:Moreso, a gunbuster sign is enough for me when I know it reflects the honest wishes of the property owner himself/herself, because if we want credibility with the public when we talk about "protecting our rights," we need to give as good as we expect to get. The fact that something would be legally unenforceable and keep me out of prison doesn't make it correct.

I was with you right up until this part above.

The property owner's rights are no more important than my rights. I have a right to carry unless a law prohibits me from doing so. I'll give a property owner the benefit of the doubt if they try to post 30.06 correctly under the law but maybe have the letters a bit too small or are missing a word or two. But a gunbusters sign without even an attempt at valid 30.06 language? No way. If the property owner wants to assert his right to subjugate my rights, he's going to have to at least ATTEMPT to follow the spirit AND letter of the law.

If property owners wants credibility with the public, then they will follow all laws - not just the ones that are "easy" for them to follow. I follow all laws regarding carry, even though some of them can be a pain. I expect property owners to do the same.

austinrealtor wrote:

denwego wrote:Moreso, a gunbuster sign is enough for me when I know it reflects the honest wishes of the property owner himself/herself, because if we want credibility with the public when we talk about "protecting our rights," we need to give as good as we expect to get. The fact that something would be legally unenforceable and keep me out of prison doesn't make it correct.

I was with you right up until this part above.

The property owner's rights are no more important than my rights. I have a right to carry unless a law prohibits me from doing so. I'll give a property owner the benefit of the doubt if they try to post 30.06 correctly under the law but maybe have the letters a bit too small or are missing a word or two. But a gunbusters sign without even an attempt at valid 30.06 language? No way. If the property owner wants to assert his right to subjugate my rights, he's going to have to at least ATTEMPT to follow the spirit AND letter of the law.

If property owners wants credibility with the public, then they will follow all laws - not just the ones that are "easy" for them to follow. I follow all laws regarding carry, even though some of them can be a pain. I expect property owners to do the same.

It's not a hard-and-fast rule with me... there are plenty of times I thought the circumstances warranted me staying armed, and I don't feel the slightest bit of rights-related guilt of that sort (not the least of which is the notion that leaving my handgun in the car would likely result in a busted window and a stolen handgun). And the no-real-attempt to even bother to look up §30.06 means I'm happy that all my fellow CHL'ers out there carry how they like and are protected by the very strong and specific nature of posting requirements in Texas, having lived in states where a simple gunbuster sign can get you sent to jail. But personally, I'm happy to respect property owners who are exercising their rights, too, in good faith. It's the lack-of-good-faith boilerplate that I'm content to ignore... it's like art; you can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

On a related note, people that violate or bend other laws to accomplish that end really get my goad: improperly posted 51% are the biggest for me, considering you're risking a decade in prison on other people's idiocy. I went to a sandwich shop here in Houston a number of months back which clearly didn't sell any alcohol at all, but had posted a 51% by the door. When I asked the manager about it, he said he did it to "scare people with guns away" more strongly than the normal sign. That little one there got a call placed to the TABC that afternoon.

All covered in a different thread - if it looks enough like a 30.06 I figure they don't want my business, card them, and leave.

PvilleStang wrote:Well, since my last thread got hijacked, and it really turned into a great debate, I'm curious: When do you turn back? What's your reasoning behind your decision? I'm still fairly green to the whole subject, but I'm of the frame of mind that it's pretty black and white, so 30.06 or bust. BUT, I want to hear y'all's thoughts.

Hi PvilleStang! This is a great thread.

My rational is pretty simple. I obey the law. If it's against the law to carry [30.06, 51%, or other Restricted Area], I don't.

With non-compliant or ghostbuster signs I follow the law. I don't try to guess about the owner's motivation or their reasons for posting the sign. There are many factors that determine my decision whether or not to patronize a business. Their feelings towards CHL are pretty low on my list.

I will turn around at a gunbusters sign. I don't discourage anyone from following the letter of the law, but my personal choice is to not enter. I am a business owner and I will respect the wishes of the business I am entering. If they don't want me there, then so be it, I will take my money elsewhere. I choose not to support those businesses and would rather patronize businesses who don't try and infringe upon my rights.