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Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:30 am
by PetrucciFan
This was in my local paper this morning.

http://www.amarillo.com/stories/030710/new_news6.shtml
A state law that makes it impossible to file criminal charges against students who bring weapons to schools in their vehicles won't change how local administrators protect their campuses.

The issue was highlighted last month when a 17-year-old Tascosa High School student was arrested after two unloaded handguns and a bulletproof vest were found in his vehicle. The 47th District Attorney's Office determined it couldn't file criminal charges because of a state law passed in 1997 that allows anyone to bring a weapon, including guns, onto a school parking lot.
But that doesn't mean students found to have weapons in their vehicle won't be disciplined.

"Our jurisdiction is over students with the education code," said Rod Schroder, superintendent of Amarillo Independent School District. "It's clear and it's explicit. They're not to have weapons on campus. If they do, they're expelled."

Legislators crafted the 1997 law to protect parents who legally carry a weapon when they drop their children off at school.

"I think the law was written to address those situations and not create a problem for a law-abiding citizen that had the right to (carry a weapon)," Schroder said. "I understand what the criminal law is intended to do."

Randall County Criminal District Attorney James Farren said he agrees parents should be able to drop of their children without being prosecuted, but the law doesn't adequately solve the problem.

"I don't think they intended for students to be able to bring firearms to school and leave them in their (vehicle)," he said.

47th District Attorney Randall Sims said he is aware of five cases in the Panhandle since 1997 in which prosecutors were unable to file charges against students who brought weapons to campus.

He said the first episode was in 1997 Clarendon; the second was in 2005 at Palo Duro High School; the third was in 2009 at Amarillo High School; and two were in the same week last month at Tascosa High School.

The education code gives school districts extra protection in handling weapons-related offenses. It sets punishments for student violators and protects administrators' rights to search vehicles on school property.

Schroder said school administrators only need reasonable suspicion to search a student's vehicle. Tips to Student Crime Stoppers are enough for school administrators to generate a search, he said.

"If there is a criminal action, the police would be involved," he said. "If there's just a civil action, then we would handle that."

Student Crime Stoppers Coordinator Dale Powers, an Amarillo Police Department employee, said school liaison officers will continue to search vehicles, because they're acting as an extension of school administrators.

"(We) are the ones that are trained to look for things," Powers said. "(We) can gather things without getting hurt."

Amarillo ISD pays 75 percent of student liaison officers' salaries, Schroder said.

Powers said Student Crime Stoppers will continue to pay for tips that lead to the removal of weapons from school campuses.

Canyon ISD spokeswoman Christy Bertolino said the district's policies concerning weapons on campus are well- defined.

"We're always looking for ways to keep our students safe," she said. "Even though it's not criminally illegal, if it's against our student code of conduct, we'd still have jurisdiction to make sure that weapon is not on campus."

But Farren said he believes the 1997 law might impact the way law enforcement can conduct searches of student vehicles based on tips generated through Crime Stoppers or other methods.

"I would be real careful," he said. "I'd sure want to do some research about what type of liability the school might face. If it is not a violation of the penal code, then my suggestion to the officers would be they're not going to conduct a search unless they believe there is a violation of the penal code. There's a difference in having the power to do something and the right to do it."

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:04 am
by seamusTX
Someone got the law wrong.

The 1997 change allowed people with CHLs to have handguns on school grounds (except when and where school-sponsored activities are held). At that time, it was still generally illegal for non-CHL holders to have a handgun in their vehicle.

Depending upon how you look at it, unlicensed vehicle carry of handguns became legal in 2005 or 2007.

It has always been legal under state law to have a long gun in a vehicle, if the person were not doing something threatening.

- Jim

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:49 pm
by mr surveyor
that really stinks for all those kids that go hunting after school. I guess that's a thing of the past now, even in rural areas.

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:53 pm
by seamusTX
Yeah, and this is Amarillo, not some pansy enclave.

- Jim

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:02 pm
by bayouhazard
One simple solution is parking off site if your vehicle contains things that violate policy.

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:07 pm
by seamusTX
School districts think that they can search students' vehicles off-campus. So far, they have gotten away with it.

- Jim

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:24 pm
by tacticool
seamusTX wrote:School districts think that they can search students' vehicles off-campus. So far, they have gotten away with it.
How do they know whose car it is? Were there any cases where the student didn't hand over the keys and the school still searched?

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:32 pm
by seamusTX
The cases that were reported recently, someone talked. That is usually how these things blow up.

I don't know if any student refused to hand over the keys.

These searches probably would not stand up to constitutional scrutiny, because there is no probable cause. However, no one has taken the school districts or police to court.

- Jim

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:40 pm
by tacticool
seamusTX wrote:The cases that were reported recently, someone talked. That is usually how these things blow up.
Loose lips sink ships.

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:19 pm
by Sewer_Ice
Ludicrous. The Police receive a tip and thats enough for probable cause to search a students vehicle!??? Forget all the constitutional holes in that one...
However, lets not forget the fact that the tip they are receiving ISN'T AN ILLEGAL ACT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!! But, with that the can search a car, and ILLEGALLY detain a suspect, and then the school gets to punish him after ALREADY violating his civil rights?

Anonymous tipster, "Student has a baseball bat in his car, he's dangerous!"
ISD liaison officer, "Well, that sounds like probable cause for a search, even though that is in no way illegal."
Liaison officer to admin, "Well, him having a pencil isn't illegal, but we found this 18 year old with cigarrettes and I know those are against your student code to possess on campus,"
Administrator, "2 weeks suspension for an otherwise fully legal act!!"

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:05 pm
by chabouk
That's full of all kinds of 4th Amendment fail.

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:08 pm
by marksiwel
chabouk wrote:That's full of all kinds of 4th Amendment fail.
Image

That and "Interstate commerce" Bull Hockey

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:14 am
by srothstein
seamusTX wrote:The cases that were reported recently, someone talked. That is usually how these things blow up.

I don't know if any student refused to hand over the keys.

These searches probably would not stand up to constitutional scrutiny, because there is no probable cause. However, no one has taken the school districts or police to court.

- Jim
Jim, these cases have stood up to SCOTUS scrutiny. There are two factors the courts take into account that make it less strict for schools. The first factor is the safety and security of the school. As was pointed out in the article originally posted, school officials have lower rules ons earches because they are responsible for the safety and security of the school. They are required to protect the students from possible threats (which will lead to interesting arguments outside the scope of this thread). Combined with the fact that it may be an administrative violation and not criminal, schools get to search students a lot.

The second factor is the "in loco parentis" argument. Kids are minors and when they are at school, the school administration is acting in the place of their parents. We all know parents can consent to things for their minor children, including searches.Again, especially for administrative violations, schools get more authority to search this way.

The best case recently of a SCOTUS ruling on school searches was the girl who shared aspirin with another student. The search was finally found to be illegal, but not because of the lack of authority. It was only ruled illegal because the school had the twelve year old (IIRC) strip and searched her underwear. SCOTUS ruled this was excessive since there was no indication there was anything in her underwear and because of the low severity of the offense. When you read the case, it shows the fine line schools walk on exactly what they can and cannot do.

I have been waiting for a long time for a kid in Luling to be searched and argue about it. There is no school property that has parking. Everyone, students and faculty, park on city streets. But the school acts as if the streets are their property, even closing down one during football games for "permit" holders. I have told my kids to not consent to my truck being searched, but I don't know if a 17 year old student will really stand up to saying no to the school principal. One of mine would probably look forward to it, but the second (still in the school) is a little meeker and would probably give in.

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:38 am
by ScottDLS
What worries me is that the lack of a state law could trigger the schools to lean on the feds for a GFSZA prosecution. Also, minor point, there are a lot of high school seniors who have reached the age of majority in Texas (18).

"In loco parentis" arguments were rejected more often in the late '60's to '70's (for restrictions on college students) and as the age of majority was lowered in many states and the Constitution was amended to give 18 year old's the vote.

Re: Guns OK in Students Cars

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:25 am
by ifanyonecan
A friend of mine in high school always parked at the city park across the street from the school, as many students that smoked did. They had cigarettes legally (being 18), but they couldn't have them on school grounds.

One day, the dogs came and flagged his car on a rare day that he parked on school property. The officers found several flakes of partially-burnt marijuana on the passenger seat, issued him a citation for marijuana possession, and the school gave him three weeks of AEP (Alternate Education Program, which is somewhat like prison).

His father took him that afternoon to Brenham to get a drug test. He was negative for all illegal substances. They went to the prosecutor and showed this to him. After he looked at the evidence, he said my friend shouldn't have even been issued a citation, since there wasn't near enough to have a usable amount, and it's doubtful that it was even his. It's more likely someone had it on their clothes and he gave them a ride.

He spent two of the three weeks he was sentenced in AEP, with many students getting very upset that he was being punished by the school when the law wouldn't even punish him. We had our own sort of "Save Ferris" campaign, and, after two appeals (first to principal, second to superintendant) with only one day removed from his punishment, they did a third-level appeal to the school board and they released him immediately. He told me one of them said something along the lines of "Why is this kid even in trouble again?"

Due to all of this, I didn't park on school property my senior year. They made a rule in the student code of conduct that students had to park on campus during school hours, and I was told several times to move. I went to the principal and told her they had no jurisdiction, and she agreed after trying to argue they did. She tried to tell me their cameras could see if something happened to my car, and I just started laughing. Their cameras can't see ten feet in front of them, and the "This is for your protection" line is just about as cliche as it gets.

Long story short, she offered to buy me a parking pass (Yes, it was $5 to park on the grounds our parents payed for), and I declined. It came up in conversation when talking to my dad once, and he told me he was going to check, and he would take away the car if I wasn't parked on school grounds. He didn't think it was respectful to challenge authority when they hadn't done anything to me. I get where he's coming from as a prominent member of the community. Needless to say, I parked at school, moving the car every day from lot to lot so they had a tough time noticing I didn't have a pass.

Sorry for the long story. I was wondering if I'd get a chance to tell that here. This seemed somewhat relevant.

P.S. There was also a week when I was home completely alone (my parents were on an anniversary trip) that I kept a loaded weapon (or more than one) on me at all times at home, and I carried a little Baby Browning in the car with me. I parked it at school. I didn't believe it to be legal then (which apparently it was), but I was convinced it would be the most inconvenient thing for me to get robbed or worse when they'd trusted me with the house and cars.