School Sign

[newbie]

Posted at blinking school zone signs is a smaller sign reading NO ALCOHOL, DRUGS, GUNS and it refers to a state education code (TEC?) number [too small; could not get the number as I drove by]. I drive onto the grounds to both deliver and pick up grandgirls at the school, and am carrying concealed in my vehicle, and never even get out of my vehicle.
Am CHL. I see nothing wrong here. . . .or is that sign sufficient to mean not anywhere on school grounds?
CHL since 2005 but still learning [and questioning] every day. . . .

[Dudley]

What do you mean? For the teachers or the students?

[KRM45]

Sec. 38.007. ALCOHOL-FREE SCHOOL ZONES. (a) The board of trustees of a school district shall prohibit the use of alcoholic beverages at a school-related or school-sanctioned activity on or off school property.

(b) The board of trustees of a school district shall attempt to provide a safe alcohol-free environment to students coming to or going from school. The board of trustees may cooperate with local law enforcement officials and the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission in attempting to provide this environment and in enforcing Sections 101.75, 109.33, and 109.59, Alcoholic Beverage Code. Additionally, the board, if a majority of the area of a district is located in a municipality with a population of 900,000 or more, may petition the commissioners court of the county in which the district is located or the governing board of an incorporated city or town in which the district is located to adopt a 1,000-foot zone under Section 109.33, Alcoholic Beverage Code.

Maybe this was it...

[joe817]

My curiosity would have gotten the best of me. I would have turned around and read carefully what the sign said, wrote it down, and brought it home for further research. But to answer your question...it's ok to pick up the grandkids as long as you don't get out of the car; ie: in the parking lot. That's true only if you hold a current valid Texas issued CHL. Not so with out of state CHL.

[Gearheart]

Not so with out of state CHL.

That's interesting. Where are the the limits on reciprocity spelled out?

[joe817]

It's in the "Gun Free Zone Act" that was posted in the forum by KeithB earlier today. I'll try to find it, but that's a chore for me. I can NEVER find stuff like that after the fact.

[joe817]

Found it.

See the thread "CHL Types" in this forum. KeithB's comments on p.1 about half way down.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 16&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[srothstein]

Well, there was also another section of the education Code that was modified last session (2007, not 2009). Many people were told that this would ban all guns on school grounds, but it really does not.

Sec. 37.125. EXHIBITION OF FIREARMS.
(a) A person commits an offense if, in a manner intended to cause alarm or personal injury to another person or to damage
school property, the person intentionally exhibits, uses, or threatens to exhibit or use a firearm:
(1) in or on any property, including a parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area, that is owned by a private or
public school; or
(2) on a school bus being used to transport children to or from school-sponsored activities of a private or public school.
(b) An offense under this section is a third degree felony.

Note that this does not ban the possession, or even the accidental display. You must display in a manner intended to cause alarm (or intend to use).

[TrueFlog]

But to answer your question...it's ok to pick up the grandkids as long as you don't get out of the car; ie: in the parking lot. That's true only if you hold a current valid Texas issued CHL. Not so with out of state CHL.

It's OK as long as you don't enter any buildings. The grounds (i.e. parking lot, playground, etc.) are not off-limits, and whether you're in a vehicle is irrelevant.

As for the Gun Free Zone Act, it's a federal law that prohibits guns anywhere in a school zone. That means the premises, grounds, and even nearby streets are off-limits. The statute has an exemption for persons who hold a CHL from the state in which the school is located. So if you have a Texas CHL, you can ignore this law while in Texas. However, if you're traveling through Arkansas and drive through a school zone, you're violating federal law. Even though we have reciprocity with AR, even if your gun is unloaded, even if it's it the trunk. Similarly, a Texan without a CHL would commit an offense if he drives through a school zone while carrying, even though we have the MPA. It's worth noting that I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted under this portion of the law, and many conservatives consider it to be unconstitutional.

[glock76]

I have heard so many contradictions about having a handgun in your vehicle (as a licensed CHL holder) in the parking lot at a public school where there are not any signs posted prohibiting such. I have asked many school resource officers and police officers in both Austin and Pflugerville and they stated if they find a weapon in a vehicle even if you are licensed to carry you will go to jail. As a teacher, I am concerned about this because if I am arrested this would cost me my job for sure. The district does not have any policy against this.

One officer stated the carry laws apply "Unless where prohibited by law" I read the law as stated below and the attorney general opinions as well. Is there a criminal code that trumps the CHL law?

Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opi ... jc0325.htm

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opi ... dm0363.htm

Are these officers misinformed or was I misinformed when I took my CHL class? (I am not an attorney)

Thoughts? advice?

[dicion]

I have heard so many contradictions about having a handgun in your vehicle (as a licensed CHL holder) in the parking lot at a public school where there are not any signs posted prohibiting such. I have asked many school resource officers and police officers in both Austin and Pflugerville and they stated if they find a weapon in a vehicle even if you are licensed to carry you will go to jail. As a teacher, I am concerned about this because if I am arrested this would cost me my job for sure. The district does not have any policy against this.

One officer stated the carry laws apply "Unless where prohibited by law" I read the law as stated below and the attorney general opinions as well. Is there a criminal code that trumps the CHL law?

Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opi ... jc0325.htm

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opi ... dm0363.htm

Are these officers misinformed or was I misinformed when I took my CHL class? (I am not an attorney)

Thoughts? advice?

By Texas Law you are not allowed to carry on the 'Premises' as defined above. So by Texas Law, you are safe as long as you do not enter the building, or a place where a 'school sponsored activity is being conducted'. If there's recess in a field next to a school building, it's off limits too. Unless they take field hockey out into the parking lot, you're good :)

By Federal law:

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

So. you are ALLOWED to carry on school grounds IF you have a state issued CCW for that state, OR It is not loaded, and in a locked container, or lockable Rack on a vehicle.

So yes, the police are misinformed.

If you want to be doubly safe, lock it unloaded in a lockable container while inside your vehicle.
For it to be unloaded, just put the magazine in the glovebox :)

What's INTERESTING to me about the above is the "a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce" stipulation...
Does that mean that a firearm manufactured in Texas, that has never left the state, is not affected by this? Interesting...
Anyone want to open carry a rifle, legally manufactured in Texas, and has never left the state, on school property and be a Test Case?

Also notable is if you are on private property within the 'school zone' that extends 1000' from the school property, then it doesn't apply. So if you live next to a school, you are not in violation to carry on your own property.

[ScottDLS]

By Federal law:

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

So. you are ALLOWED to carry on school grounds IF you have a state issued CCW for that state, OR It is not loaded, and in a locked container, or lockable Rack on a vehicle.

So yes, the police are misinformed.

If you want to be doubly safe, lock it unloaded in a lockable container while inside your vehicle.
For it to be unloaded, just put the magazine in the glovebox :)

What's INTERESTING to me about the above is the "a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce" stipulation...
Does that mean that a firearm manufactured in Texas, that has never left the state, is not affected by this? Interesting...
Anyone want to open carry a rifle, legally manufactured in Texas, and has never left the state, on school property and be a Test Case?

Also notable is if you are on private property within the 'school zone' that extends 1000' from the school property, then it doesn't apply. So if you live next to a school, you are not in violation to carry on your own property.

The original Federal Gun Free Safe Schools Act was struck down by the Supreme Court because they couldn't find sufficient authority in the Commerce Clause of the Constitution to permit the Feds to make this restriction. Congress hastily passed a new law with the reference to the firearm moving in interstate commerce, which virtually all do.

My opinion (so you know what it's worth...) is that there's a good chance the new law would be overturned. As far as I know it hasn't been tested. I've heard that it's typically only applied as a "pile on" charge when someone caught doing something else violating Federal law has a gun in the school zone. I also think that the resident permit part of the law is open to interpretation other than the ATF's. Perhaps holding a reciprocal license from another state could viewed by state law as "being licensed" by that state to carry a firearm. I'm not aware of any case law here. My two cents.

(Now a non-res CHL Badge in a Post Office...!!! Different animal altogether.... )