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Two questions regarding legal carry
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:30 am
by barres
First question isn't strickly about CHL, but property rights, I guess. I own a rental home. I understand that the tenants are allowed to carry on the property in whatever fashion they please, but can I? I retain ownership and, to a degree, control of the property, but I do not live there. I would think that I can carry there regardless of the fact that I do not yet have my CHL, but what say you who are more versed in the law?
Second is my son's care facility. A woman from my church keeps a handful of kids in her home. It is registered as a home care facility with the state DCFS (or whatever they call it), but it is her home, as well. Is her home barred when I drop my son off and pick him up as a school? What if I visit her for reasons other than her home care?
Thank you for any input you guys can give me.
Re: Two questions regarding legal carry
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:07 am
by txinvestigator
barres wrote:First question isn't strickly about CHL, but property rights, I guess. I own a rental home. I understand that the tenants are allowed to carry on the property in whatever fashion they please, but can I? I retain ownership and, to a degree, control of the property, but I do not live there. I would think that I can carry there regardless of the fact that I do not yet have my CHL, but what say you who are more versed in the law?
Second is my son's care facility. A woman from my church keeps a handful of kids in her home. It is registered as a home care facility with the state DCFS (or whatever they call it), but it is her home, as well. Is her home barred when I drop my son off and pick him up as a school? What if I visit her for reasons other than her home care?
Thank you for any input you guys can give me.
Question 2 first. You are prohibited from carrying a handgun on or about your person unless you meet one of the exemptions of Texas Penal Code 46.15. At the home care facility you do not meet one of those exemptions.
As to your first question, here is the exemption you are looking at;
Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who;
(2) is on the person's own premises or premises under the
person's control.
The question is, does a home you are renting to someone else meet the definition of premises?
Since premises is not defined in the Penal Code for 46.15, we have to look at the normal definition (thanks Charles)
Merriam-Webster; 3 plural [from its being identified in the premises of the deed] a : a tract of land with the buildings thereon b : a building or part of a building usually with its appurtenances (as grounds)
Since the land and building is "yours", I believe you can carry there. That surprises me as I thought I would be telling you no.
Anyone else see it differently?
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:20 am
by Kalrog
I agree with your statement about the first question - since the law says own or control. I would again say you can carry however you want since you own it.
I disagree with your answer to the second question. Barres has a CHL (correct?) so he can carry concealed anywhere not prohibited and a daycare is not a prohibited place if it doesn't post a proper 30.06 sign. I don't think that a daycare meets the definition of a school...
Re: Two questions regarding legal carry
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:50 am
by txinvestigator
barres wrote: I would think that I can carry there regardless of the fact that I do not yet have my CHL, but what say you who are more versed in the law?
.
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:10 am
by Kalrog
I am properly ashamed of my lack of reading comprehension.
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:52 pm
by hirundo82
But if he did have a CHL, he would be permitted to carry in the daycare facility, right? In other words, it is not defined as a school?
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:54 pm
by barres
I'm sorry; I got in a hurry when typing the second question. I know I cannot carry when not on my property now. I meant to ask about the home care referring to once I get my CHL (which will hopefully be soon).
As regards question one, that is how I understood the law, but wanted more informed opinions. Now what would happen if my tennant asked me not to carry there? I assume that my ownership of the premises would trump their request to be unarmed, but what say you?
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:25 pm
by txinvestigator
barres wrote:I'm sorry; I got in a hurry when typing the second question. I know I cannot carry when not on my property now. I meant to ask about the home care referring to once I get my CHL (which will hopefully be soon).
I don't believe it is a school, so carry is OK minus a 30.06 sign.
As regards question one, that is how I understood the law, but wanted more informed opinions. Now what would happen if my tennant asked me not to carry there? I assume that my ownership of the premises would trump their request to be unarmed, but what say you?
I say don't tell anyone and they have no reason to ask you not to carry.
carrying on premises leased to others.....
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:51 pm
by hmb
Most resedential leases allow the owner to enter the premises at certain times and for certain reasons, such as inspection of the property or putting the property up for sale. Other than that, the renter has the right to be safe in his own (rented) house and the landlord is prohibited from barging in at all hours of the day and night. You could not invite a gang of friends over to the rented property and have a big cookout in the back yard, just because you own the property. Likewise, even though you own the property, because the law recognizes that the renter has a greater interest in the property (I think we used to say the "right of quiet possession,"), I believe you cannot carry concealed without the renter's permission.
Likewise, if the lady is operating a home day care business in her home, obviously has the right to ban weapons on her premises.
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:01 pm
by KBCraig
hirundo82 wrote:But if he did have a CHL, he would be permitted to carry in the daycare facility, right? In other words, it is not defined as a school?
The problem is that
nothing is defined as a school. "School" could mean K-12, or it could mean the university. It could mean beauty school, or dance lessons, or a daycare called "The Sonshine School" (there's at least one of those in every town, right?)
If you give music lessons in your home, is it a school? What about Sunday School, or VBS?
I'm afraid the Legislature will try to fix this by defining "school". What they really need to do is eliminate any restriction on legal carry in schools, and turn it into an enhancer for illegal carry.
Kevin
Re: carrying on premises leased to others.....
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:39 pm
by txinvestigator
hmb wrote:Most resedential leases allow the owner to enter the premises at certain times and for certain reasons, such as inspection of the property or putting the property up for sale. Other than that, the renter has the right to be safe in his own (rented) house and the landlord is prohibited from barging in at all hours of the day and night. You could not invite a gang of friends over to the rented property and have a big cookout in the back yard, just because you own the property. Likewise, even though you own the property, because the law recognizes that the renter has a greater interest in the property (I think we used to say the "right of quiet possession,"), I believe you cannot carry concealed without the renter's permission.
Interesting concept. Where you you find in penal law where another person's permission allows you to carry anywhere? And on what concept of penal law would he be prohibited from carrying on rental property.
The "right of quiet possession" is civil, and a landlord violating that would not face any criminal prosecution.
I don't think the two intermix. However, this is an area I have never studied, so I could be talking about of my ear.
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:56 pm
by bauerdj
Just a thought with NOTHING to back it up, but the key here might be who has control of the premises. I think this may favor the rentor.
Dave B.
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:06 am
by txinvestigator
bauerdj wrote:Just a thought with NOTHING to back it up, but the key here might be who has control of the premises. I think this may favor the rentor.
Dave B.
That was my initial thought too. But in researching the question, the law does not seem to suppport that.
I dunno.
Day Care Facility vs. School
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:59 am
by pastor1
I called DPS (legal issues catagory on the phone list) and the lady said a day care facility does not count as a school public or privite. They are governed by two different state entities. Schools by the TEA and the day care by the Child Care Services Division. The key here is EDUCATIONAL FACILITY. A day care doesn't count as one of these according to my conversation.
Re: Day Care Facility vs. School
Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:36 am
by KBCraig
pastor1 wrote:I called DPS (legal issues catagory on the phone list) and the lady said a day car facility does not count as a school public or privite. They are governed by two different state entities. Schools by the TEA and the day care by the Child Care Services Division. The key here is EDUCATIONAL FACILITY. A day care doesn't count as one of these according to my conversation.
Private schools are not regulated or governed by TEA at all. Hmmmm...
Kevin