Brother-in-Law Held up at Gunpoint

[Cipher]

My BIL was traveling last week on the prowl for a job, which took him out of state. He was in Georgia getting gas, he walked in to pay then walked out to pump. AS he reached the pump he was "ambushed" by two BG's, one held a gun "inches from his head", the other positioned himself behind the bed of the truck with another gun pointing towards him. They demanded cash, he gave them what he had, and they left.

Now, I understand this situation worked out for the best, but I told my wife had it been me I probably would've fought. If a man has a gun pointed at me I assume that he wants to kill me, and nothing I do (short of stopping him forcefully) is going to change that. That's had me thinking for the past few days, what would be the best course of action in that situation?

He does not have a CHL and doesn't really seem interested in wanting to get one, even after this incident.

EDIT: I did tell my wife that had he been paying attention he probably wouldn't have walked into that situation. From the way he tells it they were waiting for him to get back to his truck. Seems like that'd be easy to spot.

[Lumberjack98]

Glad to hear he's okay (at least physically)

I doubt with two guns pointed at you that you'd have any time to fight back if you were ambushed. Man that is scary!

[ProudNativeTexican]

First, I would think he need to be a little more a ware. The first plan of action to watch ones surroundings. I probably look crazy most of the time but am looking around were I am going and for places that someone might be hiding.

[Cipher]

First, I would think he need to be a little more a ware. The first plan of action to watch ones surroundings. I probably look crazy most of the time but am looking around were I am going and for places that someone might be hiding.

Me too! If I'm out and about my head is always moving. My wife gives me a hard time because I watch our surroundings VERY closely when we are in the car and stopped. People must think I'm nuts in the Jeep, I check the corners at stop signs and red lights and I keep an eye on what's going on around me until I start moving again.

[WildBill]

Cipher - I am glad things worked out for your B-I-L and he wasn't hurt. Awareness is extremely important, but there are times when people can sneak up and surprise you no matter what. In this case it worked out well that he didn't fight and only lost his cash. If he had been armed, we don't know what would have happened. With a gun at your head, it would be a hard call to make.

[pt145ss]

I would think that with one BG holding a pistol "inches from your head" and a second BG armed and to your flank, that you would be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. I believe it would take a high degree of timing, skill, and luck to be able to successfully engage both targets. And then there is the add risk of firing in a gas station.


Man, I really need to make it to some IDPA matches…

[kdom]

Check out http://www.targetfocustraining.com. I've got their "weapons" DVD package, and was impressed enough that I'm going to try to attend a 2 day training class this year. Video's show numerous examples of how to get out of the situation your buddy was in (gun held to side of head), but having a second guy holding a gun on you would make a big difference. Don't think you can draw fast enough to get the BG from the position you describe, but there are viable options...

[thankGod]

I'm glad that your brother-in-law came out of this situation okay.

This is the kind of surprise scenario that requires rational rather than reactionary action. I personal believe your b-i-l made the right decision. I think he chose the best course of action considering how he was compromised. To try and fight your way out of this could easily cost your life.

Perhaps awareness and some training would have precluded the event.

[WarHawk-AVG]

Yah..I agree he was operating in condition green and just walked into an ambush

I truly believe a CHL that is carrying is more likely to remain in a comfortable condition yellow and more likely have seen the warning signs a bit before it happened...and fighting two armed gunmen would have gotten you killed I believe..thank God they just wanted money and were satisfied enough to leave and not shoot him!

I am glad your BIL made it out ok, and I guarantee that he will remember the fear involved and stay more vigilant

Trying to win a gunfight with two guns already drawn on you is a very very very low win rate bud...if you could distract them and then possibly get out of the line of fire maybe..but I would bet that it would have just initiated their attack on you

[Cipher]

Trying to win a gunfight with two guns already drawn on you is a very very very low win rate bud...if you could distract them and then possibly get out of the line of fire maybe..but I would bet that it would have just initiated their attack on you

I agree, and since hindsight is 20/20 we all know what he did was the right thing in this situation. I just don't know if the cash in my wallet (and I don't carry cash) is worth me taking the "no action" way out. It would be nice if we had some statistics to give us an idea of how many people make it out of these situations by complying, and how many are shot even though they did comply.

In other words, I don't feel very confident that me complying is going to guarantee my survival. If there's any doubt I would rather try and fight, go down swinging.

Tough call to make.

[billfromtx]

Thank god he's OK...
A gun to your head and another BG at your flank...You would have fought? You must be a bad son of a gun...

Im glad your BIL has some sense...

[thejtrain]

It would be nice if we had some statistics to give us an idea of how many people make it out of these situations by complying, and how many are shot even though they did comply.

In other words, I don't feel very confident that me complying is going to guarantee my survival. If there's any doubt I would rather try and fight, go down swinging.

Tough call to make.

I believe there are such statistics out there. I'd be hard-pressed to find them on short notice, but a good bet to start looking is John Lott's stuff.
I believe the study (based I believe on interviews with people who've been attacked/mugged/kidnapped/whathaveyou) says something along these lines:

Most likely to be injured
- Give them what they want
- Attempt escape
- Fight back w/bare hands
- Fight back w/melee weapon
- Fight back w/firearm
Least likely to be injured

with percentages attached to each case that I obviously don't remember (and the order might be shuffled a bit). Of course the situation we're talking about is a very tough call indeed, and we're all glad it worked out ok in that instance. What the study was concerned with is exactly what Cipher's looking for: "how often does the perp still injure/shoot/kill his victim even after he gets what he wants?" in a historical, statistical sense, and obviously not to be taken for 100% gospel in every situation (kinda like "always double-down on an 11, except when you're gonna get a 2").

JT

[ELB]

No, the BIL did not have any sense, he just did not have many choices. He was unarmed, mentally unprepared (and apparently still so) and walked right into it. The fact that he is alive is solely the choice of the robbers. These ladies in this post 5 women slain in store had "some sense," and a lot of good it did them.

For jtrain and cipher:

Here is a post on an older John Lott blog mentioning the type of statistics you are looking for(http://johnrlott.tripod.com/other/NCVS.html):

Note: The table at the end of this is formatted in the original post, but the formatting disappears when I copy it in, and I have not found a way to format tables in this forum. The way to read the table is, using the first line, is:

"After taking a self-protection action with a gun, the rate of injury to the victim during a Robbery was 7.7%, and during an Assault was 3.6%."

Using the last line:

After taking NO self-protection measures, the rate of injury to the victim during a Robbery was 23.6% and during an Assault was 55.2%."

Discussion by Brian Blase

The National Crime Victimization (NCV) Survey from part of the 1990s (extracted from Table 7.1 of Armed by Gary Kleck and Don Kates) shows injury rates (pre-self protection and post- self protection) for crime victims who take a variety of self protective actions. The actions range from attacking the offender with a gun to yelling at offender and turning on lights to taking no self protection measures at all. A recent improvement in the NCV Survey allows analysts to separately identify injuries inflicted after the victim engaged in some form of self-protection. When investigating whether the self-protection measures are effective at reducing the likelihood of injury, it is necessary to compare the post-self protection injury rates for the different strategies with the injury rate when no self protection measure is taken.

Taking the examples of confrontational robbery and assault shows an interesting story. After the self-protection method was employed, the rate of sustaining injury or further injury was lower in every instance than was the rate of sustaining injury when no self-protection measure was employed at all. Note that aggravated assaults are much more common than robbery. Data covering a longer period of time makes an even stronger case for defensive gun use.

Percent Injured after Self Protection Action / Robbery / Assault

Any SP with gun / 7.7% / 3.6%

Chased, tried to catch / O 9.6% / 9.0%

Ran/drove away; tried to / 4.9% / 5.4%

Screamed from pain, fear / 22.0% / 12.6%

Threatened O without weapon / 5.8% / 13.6%

No SP measures at all / 23.6% / 55.2%

There are no guarantees if you fight back, but at least you get a vote, and the odds are more in your favor.

[WarHawk-AVG]

It would be nice if we had some statistics to give us an idea of how many people make it out of these situations by complying, and how many are shot even though they did comply.

In other words, I don't feel very confident that me complying is going to guarantee my survival. If there's any doubt I would rather try and fight, go down swinging.

Tough call to make.

I believe there are such statistics out there. I'd be hard-pressed to find them on short notice, but a good bet to start looking is John Lott's stuff.
I believe the study (based I believe on interviews with people who've been attacked/mugged/kidnapped/whathaveyou) says something along these lines:

Most likely to be injured
- Give them what they want
- Attempt escape
- Fight back w/bare hands
- Fight back w/melee weapon
- Fight back w/firearm
Least likely to be injured

with percentages attached to each case that I obviously don't remember (and the order might be shuffled a bit). Of course the situation we're talking about is a very tough call indeed, and we're all glad it worked out ok in that instance. What the study was concerned with is exactly what Cipher's looking for: "how often does the perp still injure/shoot/kill his victim even after he gets what he wants?" in a historical, statistical sense, and obviously not to be taken for 100% gospel in every situation (kinda like "always double-down on an 11, except when you're gonna get a 2").

JT

Page 50 of the screen version at Gun Facts

Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense
Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In
episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:292
Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%

Now it doesn't state resistance AFTER you have a badguy pistol pressed to your temple or before they get the drop on you...I would bet initiating resistance after the numbers would be much higher

My question is this...if you as a CHL'er say were in the restroom while his BIL paid for his gas and he then exited, you exited the restroom after and witnessed the attack from inside the store, would you:

a. Tell the clerk to call 911, step out the door w/ weapon drawn and with a loud voice say your mental tape recording (mine is "FREEZE PUH-LESE, DROP YOUR WEAPON") and then drop the 1st badguy that made an aggressive move

b. Tell the clerk to call 911, step out the door w/ weapon drawn and drop badguys as fast as you could get sight picture (shoot 1st ask questions later)

c. Tell clerk to call 911 and watch as badguys maybe or maybe not gun down an innocent man only 15 feet away from you, you get to be a good witness..but someones husband/father/brother doesn't make it home that night because this world is a horrible place and bad stuff happens to good people

I am torn between a and b...if announcing yourself after you see someone in a definite life threatening situation could allow said badguy behind the vehicle to easily shift his aim to you, then who is the greatest threat at the moment..or just step out the door and hope you drill either or badguy directly thru his grape

[Glock 23]

this scenario brings up another question....

since you have been robbed at gunpoint ( a felony ), even as a regular citizen without any LEO creditionals, you can make a citizens arrest.

What happens if the BG's start walking off (pulling their weapons away from you) and you draw down on them?
Yea, they might try to shoot, but you got the advantage now. Their backs to you, while you have them at gunpoint.