Another casualty of Open Carry

[The Annoyed Man]

So you guys have no appreciation for this restored freedom? Would you rather the government take it away again for another 125 years? Grapevine mills mall has been posted 30.06 for years and now they aren't posted at all.

Freedom scares people, we have been told it's ok to lose freedom for safety. What freedoms are you willing to give up for safety? We have the patriot act, Obamacare, "common sense" gun laws. All of these things make us safer. Do you feel free?

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

[Richbirdhunter]

So you guys have no appreciation for this restored freedom? Would you rather the government take it away again for another 125 years? Grapevine mills mall has been posted 30.06 for years and now they aren't posted at all.

Freedom scares people, we have been told it's ok to lose freedom for safety. What freedoms are you willing to give up for safety? We have the patriot act, Obamacare, "common sense" gun laws. All of these things make us safer. Do you feel free?

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

I'll bet you lunch that no 06 or 07 signs go up TAM

[The Annoyed Man]

So you guys have no appreciation for this restored freedom? Would you rather the government take it away again for another 125 years? Grapevine mills mall has been posted 30.06 for years and now they aren't posted at all.

Freedom scares people, we have been told it's ok to lose freedom for safety. What freedoms are you willing to give up for safety? We have the patriot act, Obamacare, "common sense" gun laws. All of these things make us safer. Do you feel free?

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

I'll bet you lunch that no 06 or 07 signs go up TAM

I'll take the bet. Even if I lose, I win. We get to meet and have lunch.

BTW, I hope you're right and I lose. Unless you've got some insider information though, I'm just skeptical is all. GVM has been no friend to gun owners, and I've been doing what little mall-shopping I do at the Northeast Mall in Hurst instead. Hopefully, you're right.

[Richbirdhunter]

So you guys have no appreciation for this restored freedom? Would you rather the government take it away again for another 125 years? Grapevine mills mall has been posted 30.06 for years and now they aren't posted at all.

Freedom scares people, we have been told it's ok to lose freedom for safety. What freedoms are you willing to give up for safety? We have the patriot act, Obamacare, "common sense" gun laws. All of these things make us safer. Do you feel free?

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

I'll bet you lunch that no 06 or 07 signs go up TAM

I'll take the bet. Even if I lose, I win. We get to meet and have lunch.

BTW, I hope you're right and I lose. Unless you've got some insider information though, I'm just skeptical is all. GVM has been no friend to gun owners, and I've been doing what little mall-shopping I do at the Northeast Mall in Hurst instead. Hopefully, you're right.

You name the time line, then we'll go to lunch. Since we're both from California are we legally obligated to eat sushi?

[TexasJohnBoy]

I like sushi and I'm from Texas.

[Richbirdhunter]

I like sushi and I'm from Texas.

If you're in DFW come along

[stingeragent]

I think this varies by town. Where I live the only places that have new signs is 1 bank that was already posted 06, as well as HEB now posting 07. The old historic courthouse is 06 now which they legally can't be but I'm working on that. Not sure if it was posted before as the last time I was in there I wasn't a CHL holder. It is unfortunate about some employers now posting 06 that weren't before which is unfortunate. My hope is that open carry continues to be a non event despite the doom and gloom the anti's projected, and maybe the situation will even itself back out. I know everyone is always quick to blame OCT for everything but as of yet I haven't seen conclusive proof that their actions had any statistical impact on where we are now. (if I'm wrong please post a link) From what I have seen it has all been taken as speculation that OCT makes the news so that has to be the reason when in fact that may not be the case. In any case, everything they did is and was legal (to my knowledge) so they were just doing what they legally could. You may think it was in bad taste, or I may think it was in bad taste, but none the less, that is not for us to decide as it is and was a freedom they could use. We can not be hypocritical of someone using their freedoms (in our opinion in bad taste or not), and then expect us to get our freedoms without prejudice. Just as we can preach about our gun right's, the crazy anti's can do the same even though we know for sure 99% of what they say is garbage. I have seen this quite a bit on this forum. A lot of folks on here are completely against OC, yet they expect anti-gun folks to be open minded about CC. As I've said in other threads Im not part of OCT, and as of yet I haven't OC'd anywhere. Just my unbiased opinion. I try and stay on the fence, because once you go completely to 1 side and won't accept anyone else's thought's on the subject, your can't logically expect anyone else that is on the other side to take your opinions seriously either.

[cyphertext]

So you guys have no appreciation for this restored freedom? Would you rather the government take it away again for another 125 years? Grapevine mills mall has been posted 30.06 for years and now they aren't posted at all.

Freedom scares people, we have been told it's ok to lose freedom for safety. What freedoms are you willing to give up for safety? We have the patriot act, Obamacare, "common sense" gun laws. All of these things make us safer. Do you feel free?

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

I'll bet you lunch that no 06 or 07 signs go up TAM

I'll take the bet. Even if I lose, I win. We get to meet and have lunch.

BTW, I hope you're right and I lose. Unless you've got some insider information though, I'm just skeptical is all. GVM has been no friend to gun owners, and I've been doing what little mall-shopping I do at the Northeast Mall in Hurst instead. Hopefully, you're right.

Per https://www.facebook.com/groups/TexasCHLBoycott/, new 30.06 signs at Grapevine Mills Mall today...

[baldeagle]

I know everyone is always quick to blame OCT for everything but as of yet I haven't seen conclusive proof that their actions had any statistical impact on where we are now. (if I'm wrong please post a link) From what I have seen it has all been taken as speculation that OCT makes the news so that has to be the reason when in fact that may not be the case. In any case, everything they did is and was legal (to my knowledge) so they were just doing what they legally could. You may think it was in bad taste, or I may think it was in bad taste, but none the less, that is not for us to decide as it is and was a freedom they could use. We can not be hypocritical of someone using their freedoms (in our opinion in bad taste or not), and then expect us to get our freedoms without prejudice. Just as we can preach about our gun right's, the crazy anti's can do the same even though we know for sure 99% of what they say is garbage.

I don't know what rock you've been living under, but I'll just post a few links proving that the statements made in this forum about OCT are factual.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... s-at-home/
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/05/31/open ... rotestors/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/201 ... s/9789685/
http://www.alan.com/2014/07/02/video-op ... ause-derp/#
http://www.chron.com/news/politics/texa ... 015078.php
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... squad.html

Just Google Open Carry Texas and protest and activist and you'll find tons of articles about their actions and the consequences of those actions.

And for a good taste of their willingness to work together, read this thread http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... -CHL-forum

If you had advocated open carry on there you would have been chastised and then banned if you did not fall in line like a good little sheeple.

I'll show in a minute how ironic that statement is.

As for your claim that it is "not for us to decide", all I can say is rights are not a one way street. As you state, they had the legal right to do what they did. But just because what they did was legal does not mean that no one has the right to criticize them for their behavior or for the damage they have done to the 2A movement. I, for one, will not be silent about their behavior or the damage they have done. With rights come responsibilities. The second part seems to be lost on a lot of younger people.

It seems a lot of new people on the forum are ignorant of the work that's been done by Charles Cotton and Alice Tripp and members of this forum for decades and the positions that have been taken. The first open carry bill was introduced in 2011. Here's a discussion we had about it. viewtopic.php?t=44594 By that time we had been working on campus carry for several years. http://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/the-mak ... -movement/ (The first discussions regarding campus carry took place on this board in 2005) In 2013 another open carry bill was introduced. The NRA-ILA supported that bill. http://www.texasgopvote.com/texas/texas ... rry-005062 It was about that time (March 2013) that CJ Grisham was arrested for openly carrying an AR-15 near Temple, Texas. It was AFTER that that OC Texas and OC Tarrant County were established and began running through the state like a wrecking ball raising the awareness of the average citizen to gun issues, and not in a positive way.

Yeah, we "sheeple" have been working on 2A rights including OC before some of these mockers were a gleam in their father's eyes.

Many of us would have preferred to quietly work our way through the legislature, as we always had in the past, and get campus carry across the finish line and work on OC but be prepared to fight again in 2017. OCT made that impossible. Either we got OC passed this session or God knows if we ever would have after OCT got through doing their damage. And we barely did, because OCT worked overtime trying to kill the bill through the Dutton Amendment.

I have seen this quite a bit on this forum. A lot of folks on here are completely against OC

That is flatly false. I won't take the time to prove it to you. There are hundreds and hundreds of posts on this forum discussing OC YEARS before it passed, and I defy you to find ONE post where people said that were opposed to OC. There have been plenty of discussions regarding it not being as high a priority as some other cherished goals, but NO ONE has said OC should not be allowed or even said it should not be a goal.

My suggestion to a lot of the new people jumping on to this forum is to spend some time reading through the forum and learn who you are dealing with before forming any opinions about us. No one has been a greater supporter of 2A rights in Texas than the members of this forum. No one has worked harder or longer on 2A rights in Texas than Charles Cotton and Alice Tripp and members of this forum. We were working on OC TWO YEARS before OCT and OCTC came on the scene and blew everything up. So if you're going to accuse ANYONE who is a long time member of this forum of being anti-OC, you'd better prepare to get blasted, because I will not put up with it. And I have thousands of posts to back me up and prove you are wrong.

[Beiruty]

We have a lot of work to do to get the signs down. The opposition lost in the chamber but never gave up, they used the media and dollars to spread the word about the signs, it working for them.

Enough talk, let us work on the counter-measures campaign, awareness the OCer are CHLers, the good guys. Remember, they spread how do you know.... a man with a gun is a good guy...

[stingeragent]

One point at a time. All the links you posted in the top of thread were from 2014. That in no way shows they had anything to do with the 2015 session.

As to folks on this forum not supporting OC and you wanting 1 specific example? There are at least 10 on page 1 of this forum. Heres one. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81386]

As to grisham being arrested for "LEGALLY" open carrying an AR. Yes he was. He was doing what he legally could on a back roads area ( there is a youtube video of this ). That did in fact start the OCT movement. Would you have done any different? You get illegally arrrested for exercising your freedoms and don't try and do anything about it? That was the whole point for him starting the group in the first place.

Furthermore, I may be new to this forum but that does not make me any less relevant. I am pro gun. I have always been. I served 6 years in the army and have 3 tours to Iraq so do NOT treat me like I am insignificant because I don't have thousands of post like you do.

Lastly, as I said before, and your post clearly indicates it is all speculation that OCT caused anything. You posted links to news stories from 2014 that "proved" because of their antics weapons won't be allowed in their stores. Fair point, but that is not the case everywhere. Those same exact stores could have come to the same conclusion once open carry of handguns passed. You fail to realize the difference between a handgun and rifle. Outside of the caliber and the weight and length, they can still take your life. That's all the Anti's care about. This same exact thing would have happened regardless of OCT. Some mom in Chipotle would of got offended because the law abiding LTC holder is sporting a Springfield XDS. They only brought the attention earlier than when the law was passed. Quit being so naive. This same discussion would have happened irregardless of if OCT had never existed. If this law was passed on the backburner and no one was the wizer, don't you think the anti gun folks would notice citizens with hosltered handguns instead of AR-15's on their back. Do you thinks MDA cares if you have an open carried handgun vs a rifle? Nope. A gun is a gun. This arguement was unavoidable.

Edit: If you want more examples for anti-oc on this board. Look at the title of this very thread. Also see here. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81545 or here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81114
I am not gonna link every post disproving your opinion. Browse through this forum and you will see there is quite a few folks against OC

Edit 2: Back to grisham and his initial arrest, he was doing nothing wrong. How did you expect him to react. Put yourself in his shoes and come up with a different scenario for how you would of reacted. Personally if I get arrested for something I'm 100% legally doing I am gonna make the worlds biggest fit about it too. I am assuming you are incorrectly looking at these issues after the fact when everything has been established and not putting yourself in that persons position. It's easy to criticize an officer invovled shooting after the video goes viral on youtube, but for that officer in that moment it is not so easy. It is their life or the suspects, and then they are judged by a jury of their peers based on that action.

[The Annoyed Man]

So you guys have no appreciation for this restored freedom? Would you rather the government take it away again for another 125 years? Grapevine mills mall has been posted 30.06 for years and now they aren't posted at all.

Freedom scares people, we have been told it's ok to lose freedom for safety. What freedoms are you willing to give up for safety? We have the patriot act, Obamacare, "common sense" gun laws. All of these things make us safer. Do you feel free?

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

I'll bet you lunch that no 06 or 07 signs go up TAM

I'll take the bet. Even if I lose, I win. We get to meet and have lunch.

BTW, I hope you're right and I lose. Unless you've got some insider information though, I'm just skeptical is all. GVM has been no friend to gun owners, and I've been doing what little mall-shopping I do at the Northeast Mall in Hurst instead. Hopefully, you're right.

Per https://www.facebook.com/groups/TexasCHLBoycott/, new 30.06 signs at Grapevine Mills Mall today...

I get a free lun-unch. I get a free lu-unch. Dang it!

[gljjt]

So tired of the "OC killed CC" threads.
This is like the tenth one I've seen.

Simple. Choose not to read them.

[gljjt]

One point at a time. All the links you posted in the top of thread were from 2014. That in no way shows they had anything to do with the 2015 session.

As to folks on this forum not supporting OC and you wanting 1 specific example? There are at least 10 on page 1 of this forum. Heres one. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81386]

As to grisham being arrested for "LEGALLY" open carrying an AR. Yes he was. He was doing what he legally could on a back roads area ( there is a youtube video of this ). That did in fact start the OCT movement. Would you have done any different? You get illegally arrrested for exercising your freedoms and don't try and do anything about it? That was the whole point for him starting the group in the first place.

Furthermore, I may be new to this forum but that does not make me any less relevant. I am pro gun. I have always been. I served 6 years in the army and have 3 tours to Iraq so do NOT treat me like I am insignificant because I don't have thousands of post like you do.

Lastly, as I said before, and your post clearly indicates it is all speculation that OCT caused anything. You posted links to news stories from 2014 that "proved" because of their antics weapons won't be allowed in their stores. Fair point, but that is not the case everywhere. Those same exact stores could have come to the same conclusion once open carry of handguns passed. You fail to realize the difference between a handgun and rifle. Outside of the caliber and the weight and length, they can still take your life. That's all the Anti's care about. This same exact thing would have happened regardless of OCT. Some mom in Chipotle would of got offended because the law abiding LTC holder is sporting a Springfield XDS. They only brought the attention earlier than when the law was passed. Quit being so naive. This same discussion would have happened irregardless of if OCT had never existed. If this law was passed on the backburner and no one was the wizer, don't you think the anti gun folks would notice citizens with hosltered handguns instead of AR-15's on their back. Do you thinks MDA cares if you have an open carried handgun vs a rifle? Nope. A gun is a gun. This arguement was unavoidable.

Edit: If you want more examples for anti-oc on this board. Look at the title of this very thread. Also see here. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81545 or here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81114
I am not gonna link every post disproving your opinion. Browse through this forum and you will see there is quite a few folks against OC

Edit 2: Back to grisham and his initial arrest, he was doing nothing wrong. How did you expect him to react. Put yourself in his shoes and come up with a different scenario for how you would of reacted. Personally if I get arrested for something I'm 100% legally doing I am gonna make the worlds biggest fit about it too. I am assuming you are incorrectly looking at these issues after the fact when everything has been established and not putting yourself in that persons position. It's easy to criticize an officer invovled shooting after the video goes viral on youtube, but for that officer in that moment it is not so easy. It is their life or the suspects, and then they are judged by a jury of their peers based on that action.

First, stingeragent, thank you for you service. I appreciate those who put there life on the line for us all. Thank you.

Now, respectfully:

Second, I don't see the posts you mention as being anti-CC, but bemoaning the fact that there has been an uptick in 30.06 postings which affects all license holders. I am all for the restoration of the right to OC, even though for tactical reasons I prefer CC, but am disappointed at the increase in 30.06 signs.

Third, CJ wasn't arrested because he was legally carrying. He was arrested because he was belligerent from the get go. It wasn't what he said (message), but how he said it (loud aggressive behavior). He was looking for a conflict and he got one. You or I, being polite, would not have been arrested in my opinion. I do agree the officer was overly aggressive, but a different attitude from CJ would have mitigated that. Of course that is my opinion and it is conjecture but it is a fact that many people do talk themselves into a ticket our an arrest.

Just my opinion...

[jmra]

One point at a time. All the links you posted in the top of thread were from 2014. That in no way shows they had anything to do with the 2015 session.

As to folks on this forum not supporting OC and you wanting 1 specific example? There are at least 10 on page 1 of this forum. Heres one. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81386]

As to grisham being arrested for "LEGALLY" open carrying an AR. Yes he was. He was doing what he legally could on a back roads area ( there is a youtube video of this ). That did in fact start the OCT movement. Would you have done any different? You get illegally arrrested for exercising your freedoms and don't try and do anything about it? That was the whole point for him starting the group in the first place.

Furthermore, I may be new to this forum but that does not make me any less relevant. I am pro gun. I have always been. I served 6 years in the army and have 3 tours to Iraq so do NOT treat me like I am insignificant because I don't have thousands of post like you do.

Lastly, as I said before, and your post clearly indicates it is all speculation that OCT caused anything. You posted links to news stories from 2014 that "proved" because of their antics weapons won't be allowed in their stores. Fair point, but that is not the case everywhere. Those same exact stores could have come to the same conclusion once open carry of handguns passed. You fail to realize the difference between a handgun and rifle. Outside of the caliber and the weight and length, they can still take your life. That's all the Anti's care about. This same exact thing would have happened regardless of OCT. Some mom in Chipotle would of got offended because the law abiding LTC holder is sporting a Springfield XDS. They only brought the attention earlier than when the law was passed. Quit being so naive. This same discussion would have happened irregardless of if OCT had never existed. If this law was passed on the backburner and no one was the wizer, don't you think the anti gun folks would notice citizens with hosltered handguns instead of AR-15's on their back. Do you thinks MDA cares if you have an open carried handgun vs a rifle? Nope. A gun is a gun. This arguement was unavoidable.

Edit: If you want more examples for anti-oc on this board. Look at the title of this very thread. Also see here. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81545 or here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81114
I am not gonna link every post disproving your opinion. Browse through this forum and you will see there is quite a few folks against OC

Edit 2: Back to grisham and his initial arrest, he was doing nothing wrong. How did you expect him to react. Put yourself in his shoes and come up with a different scenario for how you would of reacted. Personally if I get arrested for something I'm 100% legally doing I am gonna make the worlds biggest fit about it too. I am assuming you are incorrectly looking at these issues after the fact when everything has been established and not putting yourself in that persons position. It's easy to criticize an officer invovled shooting after the video goes viral on youtube, but for that officer in that moment it is not so easy. It is their life or the suspects, and then they are judged by a jury of their peers based on that action.

First, stingeragent, thank you for you service. I appreciate those who put there life on the line for us all. Thank you.

Now, respectfully:

Second, I don't see the posts you mention as being anti-CC, but bemoaning the fact that there has been an uptick in 30.06 postings which affects all license holders. I am all for the restoration of the right to OC, even though for tactical reasons I prefer CC, but am disappointed at the increase in 30.06 signs.

Third, CJ wasn't arrested because he was legally carrying. He was arrested because he was belligerent from the get go. It wasn't what he said (message), but how he said it (loud aggressive behavior). He was looking for a conflict and he got one. You or I, being polite, would not have been arrested in my opinion. I do agree the officer was overly aggressive, but a different attitude from CJ would have mitigated that. Of course that is my opinion and it is conjecture but it is a fact that many people do talk themselves into a ticket our an arrest.

Just my opinion...

I believe at least 12 others held the same opinion