Newbie Question. Please be nice to me, lol.

[Liberty]

Even as a woman, I wouldn't want to risk it. (And we ladies have other things to think about than our wallets.)
If I saw three men approaching me at any gas station, at ANY time, and I did not know them, I would assume they were up to no good.
I wouldn't pull my gun at this point, however (if I didn't see a weapon). I would take the gas pump from my car, get into the car, lock the doors, and drive away. Once I felt safe enough to do so, I would return to pay. (I usually wouldn't need to, as I pay at the pump, and the station would already have my card number.)

Your best bet is avoidance. (It's also cheaper.)

Now if they pull a weapon, or get too close and are threatening me, its a different story.

I would demand that they "Stand Back!", at a distance of 25 feet, there may not be time enough to secure the nozzel and get in the car. Although I do agree that is the best option if there is enough time and distance.

[stevie_d_64]

Here is the similar story from my CHL Instructor.

It is 12:30am at night. You're traveling from Dallas to Houston. You decided to pull over to the nearest gas station and refill. As you are refilling your gas, you see in a distant 3 males walking towards you. They have not done or said anything to you, but yet you expect they are a threat to you. They are getting closer about 25 feet away from you. By using only Force, not Deadly Force, are you allowed to draw your weapon out to just stop them from getting closer to you?

Class: No.

CHL Instructor: Yes you can.

He told the class he done this before. He has got off the hook plenty of times doing this. He told the class, if you happened to do it, call the cops right away. Report that you are a CHL Holder, its 12:30am at night, I were pumping gas, spot 3 males at a distant, they kept getting closer to you about 25 feet, I was afraid and felt threaten of my life that these 3 males going to do something so I draw my weapon out to warn them not to get any closer so I can have a chance to retrieve away from the situation.

Is he wrong or right for doing this?

Based upon the information so far in this story...I would confidently say "no"...

But...

Since it would take a book to give all the nuances of the situation, in a condition that warrants split-second dissemination and reaction to this (non-confirmed threat)...

I would say it could take us a while...

But given the information so far, I would still say no...

Personally I wouldn't feel too comfortable with the three "yutes" (assumption) method of approach...

- aggressive
- multiple (combined approach)

I would have issued a verbal command to stop and state their purpose before closing the gap any further...Thats extremely fair to me and them in this situation...

At which point they stop, I would be very attentive to what they have to say...And hopefully at that point everyone goes away happy...

If they do not stop and heed my request, (my opinion) thats when I would present the next option to them...But thats just me...

[stevie_d_64]

Even as a woman, I wouldn't want to risk it. (And we ladies have other things to think about than our wallets.)
If I saw three men approaching me at any gas station, at ANY time, and I did not know them, I would assume they were up to no good.
I wouldn't pull my gun at this point, however (if I didn't see a weapon). I would take the gas pump from my car, get into the car, lock the doors, and drive away. Once I felt safe enough to do so, I would return to pay. (I usually wouldn't need to, as I pay at the pump, and the station would already have my card number.)

Your best bet is avoidance. (It's also cheaper.)

Now if they pull a weapon, or get too close and are threatening me, its a different story.

I would demand that they "Stand Back!", at a distance of 25 feet, there may not be time enough to secure the nozzel and get in the car. Although I do agree that is the best option if there is enough time and distance.

This is not fair! You got a 3 minute jump on me!

[txinvestigator]

I believe pulling the gun out is a bad idea. Force is beating the guy with your fists.. No pulling your gun. Don't pull your gun if your not justified and ready to use it.

Here's the thing. The way I was taught by my instructor is that...

If I felt threaten and afraid of my life, I am able to draw my weapon and use force. Once the situation settled, I have to dial 911 immediately. Give a report that I am a CHL holder. Some random male ran and snatched my wallet out my hand. I drew my weapon because I was I felt threaten and I was afraid for my life. I used Force to make him drop my wallet, but will not shoot the guy for any reason, unless he drew a weapon at me.

Would that consider to be a legal situation by pulling my gun out if I reported to the cops right then and there?

I want you to read here http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... 009.00.doc

and then justify your pulling your gun on a guy who "snatches" your wallet and runs away.

We can only have a good discussion once you actually know the law.

[txinvestigator]

If I am not mistaken the penal code prohibits you from displaying your gun unless you are justified in using it (I would have to double check) and anytime you pull your gun out it is considered deadly force. .

Incorrect.

Chapter 9 states that "a threat to cause death or
serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as
long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension
that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the
use of deadly force.

[txinvestigator]

Lets use the same situation what I wrote on the first page. WITHOUT using Deadly Force, am I'm able to draw my gun out and just use Force? All I want is to scare my victim so he can drop my wallet and run away. Am I'm allowed to do that?

If you would be justified in firing your weapon, then you would be justified in displaying your weapon. Any other situation would probably be considered "brandishing" the thing.

Not true. There is no brandishing in Texas. As in my above post, Texas law specifically states that there is a justification for displaying the weapon in specific circumstances.

I echo the thoughts of others (above). Think very hard about your proposed scenario: As our laws stand right now, scaring the perpetrator, when your life or the life of an innocent 3rd party is not in danger, is no justification for using your weapon

That's not necessarily true either.

[txinvestigator]

It is 12:30am at night. You're traveling from Dallas to Houston. You decided to pull over to the nearest gas station and refill. As you are refilling your gas, you see in a distant 3 males walking towards you. They have not done or said anything to you, but yet you expect they are a threat to you. They are getting closer about 25 feet away from you. By using only Force, not Deadly Force, are you allowed to draw your weapon out to just stop them from getting closer to you?

Class: No.

CHL Instructor: Yes you can.

He told the class he done this before. He has got off the hook plenty of times doing this.
Is he wrong or right for doing this?

Your instructor, pardon me for being blunt, is a knucklhead. IF you had warned these 3 males several times VERBALLY first, and they continued to approach, then producing a weapon could be appropriate. It is called escalation of force. It is called the force continuum. Again, read chapter 9 and tell me where in there 3 guys walking up to you justify producing your handgun as a FIRST resort.

[gregthehand]

If I see three males approaching me at night at a gas station (I say gas station b/c I don't stop at rest stops) and it looks like they may be up to no good I won't pull my gun just by looking at them. How about this? Just yell STOP. Extend that south paw out there and make the universal open hand sign for stop. NOW if they continue to advance I would feel threatened enough to present my weapon. Make sure you say stop when they are far enough away that three more steps outside of stop they will still be past 21 ft. Loud verbal commands are an important tool in a shooting. You want to make everyone around you a good witness as to why you HAD to shoot. They should be able to say that there were three guys walking toward you after you yelled stop loudly and told them not to advance. They should then be able to say that even after you presented a firearm and said stop they continued to advance. To them you shooting should be obviously a last ditch option. If you just pull a gun it's going to be your word againist three others. Not very good odds, especially if they say they were just going to ask for a ride, or money, or or. Also what if they really were? At night do you really think you can make out the facial chareteristics of a person that looks threatening, from a distance? I think your CHL instructor may have been a little too gung-ho about when you can shoot and when you can't. Maybe just to say when you should shoot, or even present your weapon, and when you shouldn't. If you have never pointed a weapon at somebody it is a horrific experience, shooting them is a 100 times worse. You need to make dang sure that before you do either you KNOW the law, not only what is written, but also how it is applied. I can think of something right now that is a really bad situation if you just pull your weapon with out verbalizing yourself as feeling threatened. Lets say I'M at a gas station, and I have actually just been acosted. Let's say someone stole my wallet and ran off. Now I'm not going to pull my gun and shoot them, and I don't run fast so lets say they got away. Lets say for some reason I am unable to make a phone call (cell phone is dead, no signal, it got taken too, etc) so I see a nice enough looking guy pumping gas. I look threatening because, hey I'm irritated my wallet just got stolen, I can't find a pay phone, and I'm broke now that my wallet is gone anyway. I just want to walk over and from a so-so (a car length or so, since not everyone is going to keep a 25 ft safe distance) safe distance ask if they could call the police I have just been robbed. Instead when I'm about 30 ft away you just pull a gun on me, and glare at me. No stop or anything just whip it out. Well hey I just got robbed maybe this is a follow up, or trap or something. Maybe they wanted to get me off guard and now here comes the real whammy. Sure at our desks we can think rationally, but on the street in the middle of the night, our reactions will be quicker, less rational (often), and often have to be made quickly. Best case scenario is a stand down, worst case someone get shot. Verbalize your actions. If someone yells stop most people will stop. "When in doubt whip it out" is not a good policy concerning your firearm.

[Spacedoggy]

The bottom line is, would you kill someone over your wallet? I hope not.

[NguyenVanDon]

I believe pulling the gun out is a bad idea. Force is beating the guy with your fists.. No pulling your gun. Don't pull your gun if your not justified and ready to use it.

Here's the thing. The way I was taught by my instructor is that...

If I felt threaten and afraid of my life, I am able to draw my weapon and use force. Once the situation settled, I have to dial 911 immediately. Give a report that I am a CHL holder. Some random male ran and snatched my wallet out my hand. I drew my weapon because I was I felt threaten and I was afraid for my life. I used Force to make him drop my wallet, but will not shoot the guy for any reason, unless he drew a weapon at me.

Would that consider to be a legal situation by pulling my gun out if I reported to the cops right then and there?

I want you to read here http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... 009.00.doc

and then justify your pulling your gun on a guy who "snatches" your wallet and runs away.

We can only have a good discussion once you actually know the law.

Thanks. I will take the time and read this tonight when I'm too busy.

[NguyenVanDon]

The bottom line is, would you kill someone over your wallet? I hope not.

I have already answered this question already. Read through the post and you'll find a few times I said NO.

[NguyenVanDon]

If I see three males approaching me at night at a gas station (I say gas station b/c I don't stop at rest stops) and it looks like they may be up to no good I won't pull my gun just by looking at them. How about this? Just yell STOP. Extend that south paw out there and make the universal open hand sign for stop. NOW if they continue to advance I would feel threatened enough to present my weapon. Make sure you say stop when they are far enough away that three more steps outside of stop they will still be past 21 ft. Loud verbal commands are an important tool in a shooting. You want to make everyone around you a good witness as to why you HAD to shoot. They should be able to say that there were three guys walking toward you after you yelled stop loudly and told them not to advance. They should then be able to say that even after you presented a firearm and said stop they continued to advance. To them you shooting should be obviously a last ditch option. If you just pull a gun it's going to be your word againist three others. Not very good odds, especially if they say they were just going to ask for a ride, or money, or or. Also what if they really were? At night do you really think you can make out the facial chareteristics of a person that looks threatening, from a distance? I think your CHL instructor may have been a little too gung-ho about when you can shoot and when you can't. Maybe just to say when you should shoot, or even present your weapon, and when you shouldn't. If you have never pointed a weapon at somebody it is a horrific experience, shooting them is a 100 times worse. You need to make dang sure that before you do either you KNOW the law, not only what is written, but also how it is applied. I can think of something right now that is a really bad situation if you just pull your weapon with out verbalizing yourself as feeling threatened. Lets say I'M at a gas station, and I have actually just been acosted. Let's say someone stole my wallet and ran off. Now I'm not going to pull my gun and shoot them, and I don't run fast so lets say they got away. Lets say for some reason I am unable to make a phone call (cell phone is dead, no signal, it got taken too, etc) so I see a nice enough looking guy pumping gas. I look threatening because, hey I'm irritated my wallet just got stolen, I can't find a pay phone, and I'm broke now that my wallet is gone anyway. I just want to walk over and from a so-so (a car length or so, since not everyone is going to keep a 25 ft safe distance) safe distance ask if they could call the police I have just been robbed. Instead when I'm about 30 ft away you just pull a gun on me, and glare at me. No stop or anything just whip it out. Well hey I just got robbed maybe this is a follow up, or trap or something. Maybe they wanted to get me off guard and now here comes the real whammy. Sure at our desks we can think rationally, but on the street in the middle of the night, our reactions will be quicker, less rational (often), and often have to be made quickly. Best case scenario is a stand down, worst case someone get shot. Verbalize your actions. If someone yells stop most people will stop. "When in doubt whip it out" is not a good policy concerning your firearm.

Yes, sorry for my instructor. He's very "Gung-Ho". He even told the class if someone came up to him face to face and pointing a gun at him point blank, he will not stand down. He will actually try to pull his weapon out and kill the other guy first.

I was taught the wrong way, or law, about when to pull out my handgun. That's the reason why I'm doing these short scenario to clarify my understanding. I will read into the "Penal Code: Chapter 9" tonight when I have quiet time here at the house.

[glocklvr]

my instructor. He's very "Gung-Ho

That can be a bad thing when talking about the use of deadly force.

[Crossfire]

Your instructor, pardon me for being blunt, is a knucklhead. IF you had warned these 3 males several times VERBALLY first, and they continued to approach, then producing a weapon could be appropriate. It is called escalation of force. It is called the force continuum. Again, read chapter 9 and tell me where in there 3 guys walking up to you justify producing your handgun as a FIRST resort.

It's a good thing this is an instructor renewal year... Sounds like someone needs a refresher.

[stevie_d_64]

Your instructor, pardon me for being blunt, is a knucklhead. IF you had warned these 3 males several times VERBALLY first, and they continued to approach, then producing a weapon could be appropriate. It is called escalation of force. It is called the force continuum. Again, read chapter 9 and tell me where in there 3 guys walking up to you justify producing your handgun as a FIRST resort.

It's a good thing this is an instructor renewal year... Sounds like someone needs a refresher.

Yes, sorry for my instructor. He's very "Gung-Ho". He even told the class if someone came up to him face to face and pointing a gun at him point blank, he will not stand down. He will actually try to pull his weapon out and kill the other guy first.

I was taught the wrong way, or law, about when to pull out my handgun. That's the reason why I'm doing these short scenario to clarify my understanding. I will read into the "Penal Code: Chapter 9" tonight when I have quiet time here at the house.

You said it!