Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

[CLTX11]

North Richland Hills has 30.06 on their City Hall doors. I understand this to be illegal unless there is a meeting etc.

I remember reading about this somewhere on this forum but cannot remember...City Hall is also connected to the Jail. You would have to enter 2 sets of doors before being inside the lobby of the jail. Coming from the outside you still have to enter 2 sets of doors to be in the lobby of the jail. They do have metal detectors when you have to enter the actual jail but not the lobby.

Also, North Richland Hills Parks & Recreation offices have the 30.06 posted, again this building is connected to the Municipal Court. I believe you can (employees only) get to the municipal court through the Office door. There is also a door to enter straight to the court.

What was the laws about being within the same buildings? Are these 30.06 signs correct?

[rgoldy]

This may be a repeat of information. Houston PD headquarters bldg at 1200 Travis is improperly posted in sign and in terms of the law. To enter the building you must pass through airport style devices. They relieved me of my pocket knife for the duration of my business. Locked it in a bag like bank deposit, and gave me a receipt. No problem, just delay. I did not push the issue of concealed carry, taking the easier way by avoiding confrontation.
Similarly, the Sugar Land PD building is posted with the wrong sign. There is a Municipal court in one end of the building, but the court rooms are in the other end from police operations. No metal detectors or x-ray machines.
I find it annoying that these departments and I suspect others, take advantage of law abiding CHL folks good nature to push the envelope on the legal restrictions on concealed carry. Of course the alternative would be to provide safe storage for CHL holders if the numerous police personnel who are in the building carrying weapons are so paranoid about a proven trustworthy and qualified civilian doing the same. Especially since folks who are carrying illegally are unlikely to pay any attention to the signs anyway.

[CHLady]

Please go to Texas3006.com when you get info about posted signs and add to their databank about signs across Texas. It'll help us all. Thanks.

[DallasCHL]

We go to the Dallas Zoo pretty regularly, and I had not noticed the sign before now, so I think it is new. The one I saw was posted at the members entrance, in the window of the ticket booth. I didn't measure, but it appeared to be a legal sign, although I don't remember now if it had Spanish. I didn't ask about the sign, but an employee did confirm that the zoo is still owned by the City of Dallas even though it is now operated by a private organization.

I found the Dallas Zoological Society's briefing to the city council. It confirms that all real property at the zoo is still owned by the city, and the city is paying the DZS to operate the zoo: http://www.dallascityhall.com/council_b ... 080509.pdf

[RPB]

Interestingly, the Burnet County Courthouse has no airport metal detector device that I've seen, I believe that AN entrance is posted, but not ALL entrances, (I may be wrong on this, but I only noticed the polling place sign thingy when I went to vote, though a 30.06 sign may be there, I wasn't carrying that day anyway, so wasn't paying real good attention)

What is interesting is that the Burnet County Courthouse ANNEX is posted at all entrances, HAS airport metal detector device you walk through at the front door and an Officer of some sort sitting there where you empty pockets etc (other doors are now locked that used to be open) so you can't carry when you go to renew license plates/register your trailer at County Tax assessor/collector or when you are going to Renew your TDL at the DPS office in that building, or go to any other county office in that building. I had to leave my knife in the car to register my trailer.

Within blocks of that building are the Sherriff's dept, City Police Dept etc, I haven't checked at any of those.

[Keith B]

......What is interesting is that the Burnet County Courthouse ANNEX is posted at all entrances, ......

And, it doesn't have to be since it is already off-limits to CHL carry as the building contains a court. However, a 30.06 is a good thing to have. Kinda like my daughters school; not legal to carry inside, but the 30.06 reminds me if I forget while carrying in the parking lot.

[RPB]

This sign is posted on the front door of the Longview Police Department. Sorry about the quality, I only had my cellphone on me.

The sign reads:

Possession of a firearm
(Including Concealed Handguns)
is prohibited in this building.

Violators will be prosecuted.
Texas Penal Code 30.05

That sign is exactly correct, and does allow the rightful prosecution of any person who possesses a firearm, including a concealed handgun inside that building, if they don't have a license.

Note if they were to prosecute a license holder (and they might try to) ... under the section the sign cites (Texas Penal Code 30.05)
Texas Penal Code 30.05
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or
in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was
forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a
license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to
carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was
carrying.

but I assume that the sign is intended for non-licensees :

§ 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an
offense if he enters or remains on or in property, including an
aircraft or other vehicle, of another without effective consent or
he enters or remains in a building of another without effective
consent and he:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.
(2) "Notice" means:
(A) oral or written communication by the owner or
someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously
designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;
(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at
the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the
attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;

......What is interesting is that the Burnet County Courthouse ANNEX is posted at all entrances, ......

And, it doesn't have to be since it is already off-limits to CHL carry as the building contains a court. However, a 30.06 is a good thing to have. Kinda like my daughters school; not legal to carry inside, but the 30.06 reminds me if I forget while carrying in the parking lot.

True, but it irked my that I had to go back to the car and leave my knife too, lol ... I always go to that building for the other County offices, I forgot it even was a court in there, but the ancient Courthouse on the Square .... no metal detector etc etc etc? walked in and voted while wearing the knife I've always worn daily since 1979, didn't even think of removing it bacause I just use it to peel oranges, clean fingernails etc ... just seemed strange all that high tech security at the Annex. I guess that small town is growing up.

IANAL (I ain't no lawyer)

[texman45]

This question isn't exactly on-topic but is pretty close. The Texas town I live in has a town park with a sign at the entrance listing all the "Not Allowed" items or activities inside the park. Examples -- No Alcoholic Beverages, No Littering, No Fireworks, etc., but smack dab in the middle of this list they have "No Firearms." Can towns prohibit CHL holders from carrying in town parks?

A second question just came to mind that is more off topic but I'll ask it while I'm here. A lot of lakes in my area are Army Corps Of Engineers lakes. I'm assuming that the shorelines are under their jurisdiction (this could be a bad assumption). If they are, are Texas CHL's valid, say while fishing?

Thanks in advance.

[bdickens]

Can towns prohibit CHL holders from carrying in town parks?
Thanks in advance.

No, they can not.

[Keith B]

This question isn't exactly on-topic but is pretty close. The Texas town I live in has a town park with a sign at the entrance listing all the "Not Allowed" items or activities inside the park. Examples -- No Alcoholic Beverages, No Littering, No Fireworks, etc., but smack dab in the middle of this list they have "No Firearms." Can towns prohibit CHL holders from carrying in town parks?

A second question just came to mind that is more off topic but I'll ask it while I'm here. A lot of lakes in my area are Army Corps Of Engineers lakes. I'm assuming that the shorelines are under their jurisdiction (this could be a bad assumption). If they are, are Texas CHL's valid, say while fishing?

Thanks in advance.

Answer to the first one is no, they cannot restrict carry in city owned and ran parks as Texas does not allow exemption form the state statutes by a municipality.

On the second one, Corps lakes and lands are off limits for CHL's as they are federal.

[RPB]

Texas Local Government Code - Section 229.001

§ 229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms,
ammunition, or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a
municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed
for personal or national defense, law enforcement, or another
lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the
limits of the municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a
business, or uses at a business under the municipality's fire code,
zoning ordinance, or land-use regulations as long as the code,
ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of
Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5) of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an
insurrection, riot, or natural disaster if the municipality finds
the regulations necessary to protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of
explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25
pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50
pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not
subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person
other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,

at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or
other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official
political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or
professional athletic event.

(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not
apply if the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area
designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting
event and the firearm is of the type commonly used in the activit

----------
On the second one, Corps lakes and lands are off limits for CHL's as they are federal.
--------

LCRA PARKS are a special deal, where they were forbidden, then allowed to CHL holders, because the Texas Legislature made changes .... and, in combination with the Local Gov't Code above, it doesn't matter if the LCRA Park is inside or outside city limits.
Basically, an exemption to a prohibition was created for CHL holders

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/search/sea ... PSInternet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SB 535 Carrying on LCRA Property �Creates exemption for CHL holders from Parks and Wildlife Code prohibition against hunting with, possessing, or shooting a firearm on the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority

�Prohibits any state agency from adopting a rule that would prohibit a CHL holder from entering or crossing the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority under certain circumstances Amends Section 62.082, Parks and Wildlife Code, as follows: Section 62.082 Target Ranges, Managed Hunts, and other Exceptions; Rules. (d) Section 62.081 does not apply to:(1) an employee of the Lower Colorado River Authority;(2) a person authorized to hunt under Subsection (c);(3) a peace officer as defined by Article 2.12, Code of Criminal Procedure; or(4) a person who:(A) possess a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is carrying; or(B) under circumstances in which the person would be justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9, Penal Code, shoots a handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 9
(e) A state agency, including the department, the Department of Public Safety, and the Lower Colorado River Authority, may not adopt a rule that prohibits a person who possesses a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, from entering or crossing the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority while:(1) possessing a concealed handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry; or(2) under circumstances in which the person would be justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9, Penal Code, shooting a handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry
----------------------

Besides that ... the sign you described is not a proper 30.06 sign anyway, so that must mean everyone except a CHL holder is prohibited from carrying firearms there .... such as the LCRA parks where firearms are prohibited, but CHL holders are exempt from that prohibition..

[WayniacKT]

Thanks for this info. My city [Shenandoah, Texas] has this to say in their "Municipal Code"...

Sec. 54-40. Prohibited acts...
-
(19) No person shall bring into or have in his possession in any park area or facility any firearm, BB gun, air pistol, bow and arrow, crossbow, shotgun, knife or other weapon capable of inflicting injury to persons, animals or public property.

Its funny, for some of the other "Prohibited acts" list they site the Texas Penal Code, but on this one the site no Texas law reference.

It's good to know I can go to my parks with my family and protect them if need be, despite their attempts to remove my right of self protection.

[RPB]

Question, sorry to bring up Corps of Engineers lakes again, but I'm still confused.

What does this mean?

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... 1.3.0.1.27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

e-CFR Data is current as of December 17, 2009
Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property
PART 327—RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS

§ 327.26 State and local laws.

a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:

(1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;
(2) Hunting, fishing and trapping;
(3) Use or possession of firearms or other weapons;
(4) Civil disobedience and criminal acts;
(5) Littering, sanitation and pollution; and
(6) Alcohol or other controlled substances.
(b) These state and local laws and ordinances are enforced by those state and local enforcement agencies established and authorized for that purpose.
[65 FR 6903, Feb. 11, 2000]

Why does that contradict this?

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... 1.3.0.1.14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
e-CFR Data is current as of December 17, 2009
Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property
PART 327—RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS

§ 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks

(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;

(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under §327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;

(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

(b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.
[65 FR 6901, Feb. 11, 2000]
------------

I'm guessing it means, State law will control, unless they say otherwise ... then they say otherwise, so the Corps parks are off limits? right?
-----

Now here is where I am Confused:

Example If Lake Whitney is a Corp of Engineers lake http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/whitney/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , but there is a State Park on it (Lake Whitney State Park http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/find ... e_whitney/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) where I'll launch my kayak and fish .... may I carry my 9mm loaded with snakeshot to protect myself from rattlesnakes both on land there and on the water? I can easily paddle 2 to 5 miles from shore to fish in my little plastic boat. If there is a little island in the lake, can I get out and fish from it if it is not part of the State Park, or do I have to stay in my kayak?
If I can only bank fish in the State Park, and my hook gets stuck in the weeds, do I have to take it to my car to wade in to get my hook unstuck from the Corps lake, then go get it again after I wade back to shore?

Signed:
CONFUSED
I just don't want to accidently break any laws.

Only asking here because texman45 asked above and Keith answered above, but if you need to move this elsewhere, to a more appropriate area/thread, please do.

Keith, I just did a search on "Corps of Engineers", It almost needs it's own Sticky in a Places where we can/can't carry section.

It might keep some of us out of trouble, see http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... la#p351056" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Honestly I think I read all 160 posts, but none I recall addressing State Parks on the COE lakes which I'm sure are patrolled by Texas Game Wardens TPWD.

[chabouk]

There's no conflict.

327.26 says they will enforce state law regarding carrying weapons, among other things.

327.13 bans loaded guns, with a few exceptions.

The second one is an additional restriction, whether or not you're in violation of state and/or local law.

[RPB]

There's no conflict.

327.26 says they will enforce state law regarding carrying weapons, among other things.

327.13 bans loaded guns, with a few exceptions.

The second one is an additional restriction, whether or not you're in violation of state and/or local law.

oK, STILL CONFUSED

If I can only bank fish in the State Park, and my hook gets stuck in the weeds in the Corps Lake, do I have to take my gun back to the car to wade in to get my hook unstuck from the Corps lake? Also, while I'm wading out in the water, when the Texas TPWD Game Warden asks for my fishing and driver's license and I also hand him my CHL and explain that my gun is sitting in my car because I couldn't bring it into the Corps Lake with me? Do I have to take it back to the car before wading out?

I guess so, It would not be concealed laying on the bank and would be a violation.

OR

Does it mean I can unload it before wading in and leave the ammo on the State Park shore, but not bring it into the Corp Lake? That's going to be hard to do while keeping it concealed.

If in my kayak, I'm supposed to show Fishing, DL, and CHL to the Texas TPWD Game Warden ... So, do I carry the unloaded gun and try to load a snakeshot bullet to kill the rattlesnake coming in my kayak' just before it strikes? Or do I have to leave the snakeshot ammo and gun in the car and just whack at it with the paddle and make it angry? Maybe it will chase me back to the State Park's boat ramp ....

OR,

does it mean every CHL that goes to a State or National or LCRA or City Park (where carry is or will be legal) that is on a Corps Lake should ge a written note from each Commander saying it's ok to wade out into the water? They'll be writing lots of permission slips ( I doubt it )