Used Pepper Spray This Evening

[speedsix]

...charge him for what??? He didn't do anything wrong...just used reasonable less-than-lethal force to stop what equals a strong-arm robbery...his only crime was being in KA

[Keith B]

...charge him for what??? He didn't do anything wrong...just used reasonable less-than-lethal force to stop what equals a strong-arm robbery...his only crime was being in KA

Assault. Whether it would stick or not is another story, but a young overzealous DA might just try to push the envelope and make a case. Trust me, I have seen trumped up charges from LEO's and DA's before and while they end up getting dropped, it can sure cause a major hassle for the individual.

[speedsix]

...with the police report stating the ADA came to the scene, interviewed him, and didn't press charges, I don't think a Tx judge would even allow the extradition...we don't have to live in that kind of fear in the USA...yet...I've seen "justice" perverted as you note, too...but that doesn't mean we should be afraid to challenge the system when it's wrong...that's like not complaining about an LEO's performance because you're afraid to get more tickets...I won't live that way...

[Oldgringo]

...with the police report stating the ADA came to the scene, interviewed him, and didn't press charges, I don't think a Tx judge would even allow the extradition...we don't have to live in that kind of fear in the USA...yet...I've seen "justice" perverted as you note, too...but that doesn't mean we should be afraid to challenge the system when it's wrong...that's like not complaining about an LEO's performance because you're afraid to get more tickets...I won't live that way...

Speedo, 'ol buddy,

Not everybody has your resources. All of these righteous shoots/challenges and protests that you espouse are costly. Just as it's sometimes best to let sleeping dogs lie; it is sometimes best to give the dog his bone. Capiche?

[Shinesintx]

Glad things worked out for you guys. Scary situation.

One quesiton, how did they know you had a CHL? Did you show it to them or did it come up when they ran your license?

I wondered the same thing...

Pretty sure (dont rely on my guestimation) that California would not know that he (the OP) possessed a CHL. I have the Utah Permit and Texas does not know unless I show the officer.

Why did the OP show his CHL in California. Pretty sure it would not have come up...and the OP did say it sparked an interest with the ADA. Maybe this is an educational moment for us all?

Not bagging on the OP...heck, I was the guy who got busted by the TSA in Tulsa for leaving a loaded mag in my LCP when I checked my baggage. Posted it here.

[strider67]

...charge him for what??? He didn't do anything wrong...just used reasonable less-than-lethal force to stop what equals a strong-arm robbery...his only crime was being in KA

Assault. Whether it would stick or not is another story, but a young overzealous DA might just try to push the envelope and make a case. Trust me, I have seen trumped up charges from LEO's and DA's before and while they end up getting dropped, it can sure cause a major hassle for the individual.

There is a member on the Forum, I'm sorry I don't remember who, with a sig line that states something to the effect of "For evil to succeed, a good man is to do nothing". While I know this situation is not quite that drastic, and I wouldn't encourage the OP to set himself up for future problems, I personally think it just stinks that he may have to fear repercussions for doing something he feels is right and just, even if it is something as simple as a letter.

Just one man's opinion...

[srothstein]

...with the police report stating the ADA came to the scene, interviewed him, and didn't press charges, I don't think a Tx judge would even allow the extradition...we don't have to live in that kind of fear in the USA...yet...I've seen "justice" perverted as you note, too...but that doesn't mean we should be afraid to challenge the system when it's wrong...that's like not complaining about an LEO's performance because you're afraid to get more tickets...I won't live that way...

Speedsix, I disagree. If there is a felony warrant, I would think that any judge would approve the extradition. Even if they had all of the information reported here and they believed it was a bogus charge, I think they would allow it.

But, I would think the assault would be a misdemeanor, even in California. And there is no interstate extradition for misdemeanors. The problem I see is that if they file the charge, it would then stay active until he was arrested and tried. This is true whether you or I are correct about the extradition or if it is a misdemeanor. And since the OP will be going back to CA sometime in the future to see his family, it would just mean he would be arrested then.

I don't think he should write a letter complaining, not only because of the possibility of retaliation (low probability IMO), but because I just don't think it would do any good. I can't see the DA having much different an opinion of Texans and CHLs than an aggressive young ADA trying to work his way up the chain. If the OP wrote the letter, the DA would probably just ignore it.

[mamabearCali]

Or you can wait until they cannot charge you (after the year) and then write a scathing letter to whomever you please. Just saying there is more than one way to get what you want done.

[bilgerat57]

Given that Santa Monica gets the lions share of it's funding from tourism, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care to have too much negative publicity. Even in Kali, prosecuting someone for protecting his family with less than lethal force in a public facility, isn't good PR. Especially when the bad guy is a proven threat to the public. So writing a public letter to the DA about a bad experience made worse by an arrogant deputy (with a little sweetening for the PD) is unlikely to cause anything so drastic as an extradition. Especially when the man who got sprayed was not actually harmed to any appreciable extent. At worst they would ignore it and let it fade away from the publics 'brief' attention. At best it might spur some effort to clean out the dregs infesting the area. My guess would be that you would get a letter from the DA's office saying "Gee, sorry you had a bad time. We're working to make things better. Come back and see us again sometime!"

[strider67]

I certainly agree with the point of not writing the letter if there were to be a true fear of retaliation from the DA. However, IMHO, I don't think you shouldn't write a letter because you won't think it will do any good. Had I not voted in the last presidential election, I don't think it would have changed the outcome of said election...but I was able to voice my opinion on the matter.

[The Annoyed Man]

As far as the ADA goes... I slept on it last night, I wanted to take my time in how I wanted to approach the letter I intend to write. No doubt if I wrote the letter last night it would have been in anger.. And although I am angry, I want to appear objective rather than as some angry redneck. I'm ignorant on who I should send it to... Anyone want to chime in?

Best to let sleeping dogs lie IMO. I wouldn't try pushing their buttons. They can still charge you up to a year after the event I believe, so just move on and learn from the event.

Charge him with what? AFAIK, pepper spray is legal in California. So is self-defense if you have no reasonable means of escape. All he has to say is that the perp trapped them in the restroom and they could not escape. He and his FIL were both assaulted by the perp.......who has a record already. OP and FIL are tourists. There won't be any charges.

My mother lives in Santa Monica, about 4 blocks from the pier. She's a respected (and wealthy) member of the local community. The ADA has a boss whose title is "DA," and the DA has a boss whose title is The People. I would write a polite letter to the DA detailing the circumstances, and describing the verbal abuse dished out by his underling. I would ask the DA if it is department procedure for ADAs to insult the integrity of the victims of crime who are visiting from out of state; and I would add the question: is it departmental procedure for ADAs to use crime scenes to spout their personal politics to the victims of those crimes. I would add that it would be my good pleasure to testify at the criminal's trial, and could the DA please inform me of the trial date.

"What? There's not going to be a trial? And your man sees fit to insult my integrity and call me names? Wow. Just wow. Wait 'till all my friends find out that your laws favor criminals and that tourists are not safe in your state."

[The Annoyed Man]

Snatchel, you'll want to read this......

I have a friend who is a very recently retired LEO up in the Bay Area. I sent him an email pointing to your OP, and asking him about current California law regarding self-defense, use of force, use of pepper spray, and carrying of knives for non-LEOs, because of my wife's and my pending trip to California in about 11 days. I mentioned my M&P45 and my wife's Kahr, which is why he mentions them in his reply. My friend is very active on the Calguns.net forum where he posts as BigDogAtPlay. He's been a friend of mine for 11 or 12 years now, and he is very much a 2nd Amendment activist. He is pretty knowledgable about what California law permits and forbids, and he is a straight shooter. Please note the parts I highlighted in red!!! For purposes of confidentiality, I've used his and my forum names:

Hi TAM,

The volume limitation on pepper spray for non LEO in California is indeed 2.5 ounces of product, which is the Mark III size. I carried this size for many years on the street as a LEO. Usually these are good for 15 one second bursts, or two - three good hose downs if the agent is a liquid. I tend to prefer liquid over foam but the foam is going to be less injurious to the assailant's eyes are contact range. You can possess as many canisters as you feel you need to, i.e. extras in your luggage.

You can defend yourself from attack, just as happened in the linked story. California law is pretty broad in a less than lethal force scenario. The line gets drawn with the use of a self defense spray in an offensive manner... that becomes an assault and can be charged as high as a felony when that assault is being done to further some other crime.

Knives.... a complete bollocks in California and particularly in and around LA county and LA city. There is no state pre-emption on knives like there is with firearms and local authorities do create a varied web of ordinances. LA city, for instance, bans all folders with a blade over 3 inches. The CRKT M21 blade is 3.875 inches... a problem. LA county bans the open carry of any knife and also bans carry of knives with a blade longer than 3 inches. This is why the responding officer, sympathetically, told the subject of the story to ditch his knife... he was in violation of county ordinances for sure, and may or may not have have been in violation of City of Santa Monica ordinances as well. I can't say because I am not familiar with Santa Monica's ordinances without a bit of research.

State law forbids concealed carry of a fixed blade knife. A lot of the questions you have on knives are going to generally be up to where it is that you happen to be going. I carry a Kershaw Blur assisted opening folder every day, but the blade is just slightly over 3 inches so when I have to travel to LA itself I leave it at home and carry a simple pocket knife with as big a blade as I can muster. Better than nothing. As a LEO I often carried a Ka-Bar #1480 TDI knife, but a citizen can't conceal it in California. I have, on occasion, carried it concealed, but usually just openly on my belt if local laws don't preclude.

It goes without saying that the magazines for your firearms need to have a capacity no greater than 10 rounds. Crossing the state line with assembled mags with a capacity > 10 rounds is a felony. The regular capacity for an M&P 45 is ten and the Kahr is seven so no worries there if you have OEM magazines for them. Locked container carry here, your mags can be loaded but not inserted into the gun, chambers must be empty, loaded mags can be in the same locked container with the gun. You can keep loaded and concealed firearms in your temporary domicile (i.e. hotel room) under an exemption in the Penal Code, so it's okay to load up when you reach your room for the night.

I don't discount the story of your friend, but for an assistant district attorney (Santa Monica does have it's own branch courthouse) to come rolling out on that type of a call is absolutely assinine. There was no reason for him to do that unless they are totally bored. I've seen several dozen similar calls in my time and we settled each and every one of them without an ADA having to come out and hold our hands. I'd be willing to bet he doesn't have a lot of respect from the field personnel.

Let me know if I've left anything unanswered. Have a happy new year and enjoy your trip.

BigDogAtPlay

[speedsix]

...with the police report stating the ADA came to the scene, interviewed him, and didn't press charges, I don't think a Tx judge would even allow the extradition...we don't have to live in that kind of fear in the USA...yet...I've seen "justice" perverted as you note, too...but that doesn't mean we should be afraid to challenge the system when it's wrong...that's like not complaining about an LEO's performance because you're afraid to get more tickets...I won't live that way...

Speedo, 'ol buddy,

Not everybody has your resources. All of these righteous shoots/challenges and protests that you espouse are costly. Just as it's sometimes best to let sleeping dogs lie; it is sometimes best to give the dog his bone. Capiche?

...you ain't got a clue...I am probably the person on here with the LEAST financial resources...don't even know a lawyer who'd represent me...it's resolve...to do what's necessary to stop evil when it's in my face and work out the rest later...I'd have a public defender appointed and trust God first and the system later for justice...I've howled like a dog all my life against wrong put upon me and mine, and won most of the complaints...because I don't complain unless it's justified...I'm not wired to worry about legal costs and whatifs if something needs doing...and I'm not wired to often comment on how somebody might be right and within the law but they're gonna get in trouble...that's not my way...to each his own...and I love dogs...but the ones you refer to ain't sleepin', they're growlin' and snappin' at law-abidin' citizens...and I'd give a dog HIS bone...while not lettin' him TAKE MINE...

...so you might not join my posse...unless the problem involved your family...that's fine...somebody's gotta stay home in case they circle 'round and come back...we all have our places...

[Oldgringo]

...with the police report stating the ADA came to the scene, interviewed him, and didn't press charges, I don't think a Tx judge would even allow the extradition...we don't have to live in that kind of fear in the USA...yet...I've seen "justice" perverted as you note, too...but that doesn't mean we should be afraid to challenge the system when it's wrong...that's like not complaining about an LEO's performance because you're afraid to get more tickets...I won't live that way...

Speedo, 'ol buddy,

Not everybody has your resources. All of these righteous shoots/challenges and protests that you espouse are costly. Just as it's sometimes best to let sleeping dogs lie; it is sometimes best to give the dog his bone. Capiche?

...you ain't got a clue...I am probably the person on here with the LEAST financial resources...don't even know a lawyer who'd represent me...it's resolve...to do what's necessary to stop evil when it's in my face and work out the rest later...I'd have a public defender appointed and trust God first and the system later for justice...I've howled like a dog all my life against wrong put upon me and mine, and won most of the complaints...because I don't complain unless it's justified...I'm not wired to worry about legal costs and whatifs if something needs doing...and I'm not wired to often comment on how somebody might be right and within the law but they're gonna get in trouble...that's not my way...to each his own...and I love dogs...but the ones you refer to ain't sleepin', they're growlin' and snappin' at law-abidin' citizens...and I'd give a dog HIS bone...while not lettin' him TAKE MINE...

...so you might not join my posse...unless the problem involved your family...that's fine...somebody's gotta stay home in case they circle 'round and come back...we all have our places...

I reckon I must have lived a rather sheltered life. I've always kinda' subscribed to the philosophy of "don't start no stuff, won't be no stuff" and to pick my battles. It's kinda' like "concealed is concealed".

Please have a Happy and Safe New Year. Put it on my tab.

[speedsix]

...I'm down at Bubba's Arsenal, tent pitched outside the door...when they open up for their annual New Years' Sale...I'm gonna do just that...don't squeal when you get the bill!!! I was raised with the "don't start none and there won't BE none", too...but these days they deliver!!! you don't have to go lookin'...