How do you convice someone, if you even can?

[Oldgringo]

After all is said and done, two truisms remain:

* When danger is present and seconds count, the cops are only minutes away.
* A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

Nothing says this any better than smokindragon's 911 call above.

[Fangs]

I've found that many people (myself included at one point) are just scared of guns because of the weight of their results (life or death) and an unfamiliarity with them. I had always liked the concept of guns, drawn pictures of them, talked about them while growing up, but when it came to putting a real gun in my hands I was a little scared/nervous. Growing up with just my mother, older sister, and 4 little brothers, we never had a firearm in the house. I once had a gun pulled on me at a party and, after taking it from the guy, realized that I didn't even know how to take the magazine out.

This all changed about a year and a half ago when I stopped by Collector's Firearms in Houston and bought a 7mm rifle and my .40 kind of on a whim while visiting a friend. After shooting them I realized that I really enjoyed guns. Now I have a collection going, and can't seem to stop. The funny part is that I hadn't been to a gun show until last month, though I've been shooting at least once a week since I got my CHL.

[ClarkLZeuss]

Depends on the person.

As an example, two people I took to the range about a year and a half ago: He's a scientist, PHD candidate, and his sister is just a general stereotypical hippie.

This very subject came up. (i.e. "The cops will come and they are professionals highly trained to use guns, etc"
So I proposed an experiment.
I wagered that I could teach his sister, inside of one day, to shoot a target at 10 yards, with the typical "two on the chest, one in the head" move. after a few hours of instruction. If she was able to to it, he'd take me and her out to a nice expensive steak dinner. If she was unable to do it, I'd take him and her to an expensive seafood dinner.
(No bias on her part, either way she got dinner out of it!)

After an hour and a half of practice, she did wonderfully; making a raggedy hole in the chest ring, and another somewhat raggedy hole in the head.

She had such a good time, she now shoots IDPA or IPSC somewhere in San Antonio.

He changed his tune somewhat after that. After seeing his sister have such a ball, he gave up thinking guns didn't belong in the hands of "private citizens", and that they could adequately defend themselves with them. He even shot a few rounds of IDPA, but decided guns weren't for him. He mostly supports the private ownership of weapons, but he's still for an AWB. (I still have work to do!)

You bring up another point that touches on something I didn't want to get into, but figure what the heck.

I think a lot of people on the "other side" of issues (here, I mostly mean "righties" but both sides are guilty of this) like to dehumanize people that disagree with them.
Your average person that believes that guns arent for private citizens isn't a communist or a statist because they believe that. Most of the time, these people honestly believe that guns are these magical voodoo objects that only chosen ones can handle, like it's some kind of sword in a stone.

Others have a problem with the NRA member stereotype. (a stereotype which we, or the NRA doesn't do a good enough job of breaking, and at times seems to encourage!) The NRA and other advocacy orgs need to do a better job reaching out to others to get them to the correct side of the fence.

We as gun owners need to do better to welcome those folks that might indeed be "statist, leftists" to the right side of the gun issue!

Hi nitrogen,

That experiment of yours was a great way to go! I'll have to remember that.

As for me using the term "statist," I didn't mean that in a derogatory way, like other terms such as "stalinist" or "communist." To my understanding, "statist" just means someone who favors more State control over things than a "rightie" would, or more accurately, someone who wants the State to provide certain things (healthcare, education, personal protection) that a "non-statist" would prefer to provide for themselves. I've only heard the term recently, so if that term has a history as a dehumanizing label, then my apologies. I was trying to choose a word other than the typical ones right-wing folks tend to throw out there, and "statist" vs. "non-statist" seems to me to be the root issue of disagreement between both side of the aisle. Cause I agree with you: the advancement of ideas and personal attacks are mutually exclusive. So, again, sorry if I offended you or anyone else. Your post was a good reminder that we all need to stay off the bandwagon of slander.

[pdubyoo]

For me personally, I've never been anti-gun...I was just never exposed to guns until just a few years ago. Until that point, I didn't really see myself as a handgun owner. My thought processes along this line were altered by uncomfortable experiences where I was extremely concerned for my personal safety. I travel by car a lot around TX and OK, and I found myself in a couple of fairly procarious situations.

Those experiences became knowledge, and the more knowledge I gained, the more I determined that owning/carrying a handgun for defense was a wise move for me. I've been a CHL for several months now, and am rarely without my concealed handgun.

My wife grew-up in a home where guns (mainly rifles & shotguns) were just part of life. Even though she was around guns a lot growing-up, she didn't see the need for owning one as an adult. She didn't like all the bambi heads on the wall in her dad's office. When I started talking to her about getting a handgun for protection, she was dead set against the idea, due to having young children in the house. After an incident early last year with a peeping-tom in the neighborhood, she quickly saw the justification come to life, but was still concerned about access by our children.

Once we adequately addressed the "access" issue, I made the investment. After hearing of some recent female abductions in the Houston area, and the horrific outcomes, she decided that she needed to have one also. She will be taking a gun education/safety course in the near future, and will likely apply for her CHL this summer. She sees the need and is acting on it, but she still gets upset when "guns" are a focus in conversation. She thinks I obsess too much on guns (along with cars, fishing, hunting, etc.)

My point is this...Everyone's position on gun ownership, positive or negative, is formed from several influences...life experiences, opinions from others and fear, among others. In some cases, the fear is so great that it over-rides anything else, including common sense.

When discussing the topic of gun ownership with your friends, neighbors, colleagues, etc., remember this...while it is a God-given right to bear arms, not everyone should own a gun. If they are against the idea completely, that may be a blessing in disguise...don't push it, just let it go.

That's my 0.02

[Mithras61]

One of my friends pointed out the same thing recently: whenever someone says it's preferable to call the cops than carry a gun, they have actually - albeit unknowingly - stated that guns are the solution. But if you point this out to them, they will usually respond with something like, "Well, the police are professionally trained in handling firearms."

Ah yes - the old "police are professionally trained" thing. I would argue truthfully that so are many who take their responsibilities seriously. Many of us are current/former military and LEOs as well as having taken other types of training (NRA classes, force-on-force, etc). The REAL argument is that they are for state-sponsored force, not citizen-initiated force. Personally, I prefer to know that should such a time arrive, I am prepared to defend my own life and those of my loved ones, ratehr than hoping police can respond in time (since they usually cannot, and have no responsibility to do so - which may be a point you could use in that discussion, btw).

I'm reminded of the police officer that had her gun rust into her holster. I bet she'd be really useful if things went sideways...

[srothstein]

... "Well, the police are professionally trained in handling firearms." This is where the rubber really meets the road. How do we respond to this?

Police officers generally don't have all that much training. I don't know exactly what they do get.

Well, if you really want to know how much training the average cop gets, here is a link to the TCLEOSE web site with the curriculum for the basic police academy. The section for firearms (section 2) has the material covered in class:
http://www.tcleose.state.tx.us/GuideIns ... _links.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After basic academy, there is only a requirement to qualify once per year. Some agencies do more training some do less. I would guess that the average cop spends about 8 hours per year on a firing range for their department. When i was with SAPD, we did one full day per year. At TABC, we do 2 days per year, but average 4 hours per class. This is actually a little better than SAPD because we usually have fewer officers in a class. One academy just borrowed 300 rounds of ammo from us for his whole class. Another we send our trainees to required 2000 rounds per officer for training.

For my new agents academy, I currently have 24 hours at the range. This is for both pistol and shotgun. Next year, we are probably going to add 24 more hours of patrol rifle.

As pointed out, some officers will have more because of their personal interest and desires. This puts them on an equal basis with the average hobbyist who also shoots for his own interests. Average cop is a little better shot than the average citizen (who isn't interested in guns at all) but not much. And much worse shot than the average firearms hobbyist.