Newbie Question. Please be nice to me, lol.

[kauboy]

Cool, thanks guys.

[mbw]

Txinvestigator- You are probably correct for the wrong reason. The phrase "Theft during the nightime" is a seperate crime, not a condition that applies to the rest of the statue.

The problem that he would have is section 3-

3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

[kauboy]

Yes, technically you are correct, but TXI is not wrong either.
He just added an additional obstacle that you would have to overcome if this path were followed.
I made the point about 3(a) or (b) and he made the point about time of day.

In short, the deck would be highly stacked against you.

[NguyenVanDon]

This is great info you guys are giving. So basically there is 2 side on this, but shooting the guy in broad daylight when he running away with my wallet is a NO. And yeah, I do not have 50k to spare on court, bail, and any other extra expenses.

But I am still confused though. It said in reasons if I believe my wallet would not be recovered at all, then I can shoot the guy still?

[NguyenVanDon]

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


Straight from the Penal Code.
If 3(a) or 3(b) are not met, you CANNOT SHOOT!!!
We don't get to pick and choose which sections of the law we want to follow.
If you shoot a fleeing suspect while he is no longer a threat to you or anyone else(threat being defined here as capable of deadly force) and he is only in possession of easily recoverable items, you will be prosecuted and spend a long time in a concrete box.

Now, conversely, if he stole your gun (because he saw a flash of it in the store, or whatever) and was fleeing with it, YES you would be completely justified in shooting him with your backup.(you do have a backup, right) This is allowed because he now meets 3(b) and is a deadly threat to society, and he has YOUR GUN. You are responsible for that gun and he may cause great harm with it. It would then be your duty to ensure that he cannot do so.


Sorry, I know crow tastes bad, but your friend was right. Your wallet is not worth taking the life of another.
I would HIGHLY advise you to read through the Texas Penal Code to ensure that you understand the law to the best of your ability. Especially the sections dealing with the use of deadly force. It WILL be used against you in court, therefore you should try to know it through and through.


EDIT: Oh yeah, Welcome to the forum

Hmmm, good point. Interesting...

[NguyenVanDon]

Just curious TXI, what constitutes theft as opposed to robbery? What is the difference? If theft must happen "during the nighttime" as stated in the law, what would make it all out robbery?

A theft becomes a robbery when the offender, during the commission of the theft, intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or intentionally or knowingly threatens or places another in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.

The is a former Dallas area Securty Guard who is in prison today because he shot and killed a teen who was fleeing after the guard believed the teen had stolen something from a store.

BTW, theft from a person is a felony.

This is why I tell students; if you are willing to use deadly force to protect stuff, you better study the penal code some. Those listed crimes have definitions.

Hey txinvestigator. Thanks for the info also. Are you a CHL instructor?

Well, I guess I got my answer then. Thanks again fellas. I will be around here more often and here to stay...

[hi-power]

NguyenVanDon,

Welcome to the forum!

But I am still confused though. It said in reasons if I believe my wallet would not be recovered at all, then I can shoot the guy still?

What is in your wallet that cannot be replaced except for a few dollars? Driver's license, credit cards, social security cards, photos, and the wallet itself can all be replaced. I would suggest if you're carrying a lot of cash, don't keep it in your wallet.

So we're back to the same question...would you feel OK to kill or seriously injure someone over a few dollars? I wouldn't.

[stevie_d_64]

As TX stated, robbery is a combination of two other crimes. A shorthand version is robbery is theft plus assault.

Chas.

Bingo...

I'm on the agreement train on this one...

Mr. Nguyen, welcome to the forum sir...

You will find out there are lots of ways to ensure, to a reasonable degree, to not get yourself into situations where this might happen to you...

[glocklvr]

moraly are you willing to take a human life over a few dollars

The reason I raised this question is because I have pulled and although it was in a much different situation because I was in my parents' bedroom and had a very real fear for my safety at the time and pre-CHL. I didn't have to shoot luckily due to the BG's backing down at the sight of my gun but to look at an individual thru gun sights knowing that I was that close to having to take a human life is a very sick feeling that I hope I never have to experience again and would not wish on anyone. I had my gun within inches of the individual's face and was able to justify my actions sufficently enough to avoid legal trouble but it is not worth going thru over someting like a wallet legal or not. I am not going to go into full details about what happened that night but it is someting to think about when anyone talks about pulling a gun there are few things in this world truly worth killing over.

[NguyenVanDon]

moraly are you willing to take a human life over a few dollars

The reason I raised this question is because I have pulled and although it was in a much different situation because I was in my parents' bedroom and had a very real fear for my safety at the time and pre-CHL. I didn't have to shoot luckily due to the BG's backing down at the sight of my gun but to look at an individual thru gun sights knowing that I was that close to having to take a human life is a very sick feeling that I hope I never have to experience again and would not wish on anyone. I had my gun within inches of the individual's face and was able to justify my actions sufficently enough to avoid legal trouble but it is not worth going thru over someting like a wallet legal or not. I am not going to go into full details about what happened that night but it is someting to think about when anyone talks about pulling a gun there are few things in this world truly worth killing over.

I again greatly appreciate you guys insights.

Thanks for your personal experience. I can keep this to heart. Me on the hand would do the same thing as what you did, unless he about to cause harm to me, then I wouldn't have a problem to shoot him. I can see a few extra dollars, credit card, driver license, social security, and etc. would not be a problem to replace.

[txinvestigator]

Txinvestigator- You are probably correct for the wrong reason. The phrase "Theft during the nightime" is a seperate crime, not a condition that applies to the rest of the statue.

The problem that he would have is section 3-

3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

No, you can only use deadly force to prevent the other from escaping with property taken from a theft during the nighttime, not daytime theft.

Once you have theft during the nighttime, then 3) applies.

[txinvestigator]

This is great info you guys are giving. So basically there is 2 side on this, but shooting the guy in broad daylight when he running away with my wallet is a NO. And yeah, I do not have 50k to spare on court, bail, and any other extra expenses.

But I am still confused though. It said in reasons if I believe my wallet would not be recovered at all, then I can shoot the guy still?

NOT DURING THE DAY.

[NguyenVanDon]

This is great info you guys are giving. So basically there is 2 side on this, but shooting the guy in broad daylight when he running away with my wallet is a NO. And yeah, I do not have 50k to spare on court, bail, and any other extra expenses.

But I am still confused though. It said in reasons if I believe my wallet would not be recovered at all, then I can shoot the guy still?

NOT DURING THE DAY.

Sweet...Thanks.

Night = Yes
Daytime = No

[fm2]

I wonder when/if the code will catch up to identity theft problem? Your identity is not so easily recovered.

[Venus Pax]

I wonder when/if the code will catch up to identity theft problem? Your identity is not so easily recovered.

Excellent point!