Concealed Carry On Campus Forum at TX State

[srothstein]

University Police Capt. Daniel Benitez said he would not feel comfortable with students carrying guns on campus and the possibility use at free will.

He really needs to come by the Hines building and talk to the students there. I would guess that a significant number of us are carrying already. This is the Criminal justice building, and in my classes, I would say a good number probably have more police experience than he does. From my private discussions, the professors there are probably two to one in favor of on campus carry.

I am going to try to make the first few minute sof the forum, but class begins at 6:30, so I can't stay for it all.

[srothstein]

In a slight hijack of the thread, I would like to point out to ScottDLS and RPB that House Bill 86, as filed on November 8 applies to all universities, public or private, in Texas. And it even covers employee rules and student rules. It is fairly simple in its text stating that a CHL may carry on campus and the school may not adopt any rules forbidding it (other than rules for storage of weapons in dorms).

Full text is here: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/82 ... 00086I.htm

And if you want to follow any bills filed, look here: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/Reports/General.aspx but be sure to select the correct session (82R is the upcoming session with pre-filing of bills going on now).

[baldeagle]

University Police Capt. Daniel Benitez said he would not feel comfortable with students carrying guns on campus and the possibility use at free will.

Is it a pre-requisite for Campus Police to be sub-optimal?

Apparently not everywhere. UTD's Campus Police Chief Larry Zacharias is the retired Chief of Police of Richardson. I'm quite certain he knows police work well, having served our city for more than 31 years before retiring. He was hired partly due to his principles and ethics, replacing a disgraced former Chief who has been accused of ethical violations as well as misuse of funds. (And no, I will not answer any questions about that.)

[baldeagle]

University Police Capt. Daniel Benitez said he would not feel comfortable with students carrying guns on campus and the possibility use at free will.

This is an attitude that we simply must change. The idea that because someone carries a weapon they are automatically a threat to everyone around them is proven false daily by the many honorable police officers who serve their communities. Does the Police Capt. really think that police are somehow different than all other human beings? That no one who does not serve in law enforcement could possibly be honorable? I doubt seriously he believes that. It's much more likely he has bought in to the liberal drumbeat that guns are inherently dangerous - that the human being who possesses them is somehow changed by their presence into a danger to others.

That simply must change. We must convince those who choose not to carry that those who do are just like them. Average everyday citizens who have chosen to take personal responsibility for their safety rather than rely solely on their police department.

[RPB]

I'm tied up with an upper respiratory infection now,
but anyone who is going to attend can expect the following arguments probably:

http://www.campuscarry.com/pdf/sccc_answers_2010.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yet the police admit they can't stop burglaries of vehicles, and want you to leave your gun in your car, as it is more secure/safer than concealed in your pants. (Maybe they want to start TSA type massages/rubdowns, I mean "pat downs"?)

Personally, I like to remind people about Luby's, and about car burglaries, and that I don't intend to run towards trouble, nor play Batman, but if some student downstream benefits when I stop someone from shooting me in the head as I await my turn, so be it..

On a related note Today:

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/TCU-aler ... 03424.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TCU on alert after attempted kidnapping
FORT WORTH - Texas Christian University sent out a warning to students Friday after a man attempted to kidnap a female student early in the morning about two blocks from the campus.

[terryg]

In a slight hijack of the thread, I would like to point out to ScottDLS and RPB that House Bill 86, as filed on November 8 applies to all universities, public or private, in Texas. And it even covers employee rules and student rules. It is fairly simple in its text stating that a CHL may carry on campus and the school may not adopt any rules forbidding it (other than rules for storage of weapons in dorms).

Full text is here: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/82 ... 00086I.htm

And if you want to follow any bills filed, look here: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/Reports/General.aspx but be sure to select the correct session (82R is the upcoming session with pre-filing of bills going on now).

Yes, I have been VERY pleased by the text of that bill and have commented before. In fact, support for this bill deserves its own thread:

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=39810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ScottDLS]

In a slight hijack of the thread, I would like to point out to ScottDLS and RPB that House Bill 86, as filed on November 8 applies to all universities, public or private, in Texas. And it even covers employee rules and student rules. It is fairly simple in its text stating that a CHL may carry on campus and the school may not adopt any rules forbidding it (other than rules for storage of weapons in dorms).

Full text is here: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/82 ... 00086I.htm

And if you want to follow any bills filed, look here: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/Reports/General.aspx but be sure to select the correct session (82R is the upcoming session with pre-filing of bills going on now).

Wow. Do you think this (implicitly) overrides the authority of a private institution to use the trespass statute, section 30.06?

(

(c) An institution of higher education or private or
independent institution of higher education in this state may not
adopt any rule, regulation, or other provision prohibiting license
holders from carrying handguns on the campus of the institution.

The problem I see is the above doesn't seem to prohibit posting of 30.06 sign.... I didn't "adopt a rule"...I just posted a sign.... And further, even if it did, it doesn't invalidate the criminal statute PC 30.06. That is, unless you could argue because of the above language the 30.06 posting was somehow invalid. The problem with putting the above language in the Government Code is it doesn't modify the criminal trespass statute...though later the law it does modify 46.035...In fact, it even seems to suggest that a collegiate sporting event can be made off limits with 30.06.

I think the law is just taking higher education level schools out of the realm of 46.03 for students, but keeps 30.06 in place for private institutions.

[baldeagle]

I don't agree with you ScottDLS. I think the wording, "may not adopt any rule, regulation, or other provision prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns" expressly prohibits the posting of 30.06 signs. "Other provision" is broad and certainly would include posting 30.06 signs, in my opinion. I'd love to see Charles' comments on this.

[ScottDLS]

I don't agree with you ScottDLS. I think the wording, "may not adopt any rule, regulation, or other provision prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns" expressly prohibits the posting of 30.06 signs. "Other provision" is broad and certainly would include posting 30.06 signs, in my opinion. I'd love to see Charles' comments on this.

Here's my thinking...The Government Code doesn't specify any penalty for adopting a "provision". It just says you can't do it...just like DPS can't take more than 90 days to issue your CHL...

So, if you are waiting more than 90 days and you decide to carry anyway, are you exempt from 46.02?

I don't like the fact that the law doesn't address 30.06 specifically.

So a (private) college posts 30.06. They "can't", but they do anyway. The way I see it they have provided notice, and you are trespassing. I suppose you could get a judge to order them to remove the signs. Or maybe you can't be prosecuted.

Anyway it's a great law...and there's no reason why it should be limited to schools. Why not other private employers? Wow I'd love to see that pass.

[baldeagle]

I've been thinking about this some. I think there are two kinds of property; private (owned by individuals or groups of people) and public (owned by the taxpayers), and two classes of property; restricted and not restricted.

If property is public, then there should be no restrictions on carrying other than those restrictions that apply to all citizens. For example, if a public park closes at 10PM, then it's closed and carrying in the park after it's closed would incur the penalty of trespassing, which would affect your CHL. Military bases are restricted access but owned by the taxpayers. Since access is restricted, only those allowed to access the base would be allowed, but those people should be allowed to carry except where weapons are forbidden for all.

If property is private, the property owners get to decide if weapons are allowed unless access is not restricted. IOW, if the public is not restricted from entering the property (think Walmart, a restaurant, a bar, a retail store, Sam's Club, Costco, etc., etc.) then CHL holders cannot be prohibited from carrying.

I think that is the most balanced way to honor both private property rights and 2A. If you open your private property to public access you no longer get to restrict carrying. Universities are open to the public, whether they are public or private universities. They should not be allowed to restrict legal carrying of weapons in any way.

[ScottDLS]

I'm with you on this. I think it is reasonable to limit the exercise of private property rights (i.e. banning guns) on property that is generally open to the public.

[Dragonfighter]

I'm with you on this. I think it is reasonable to limit the exercise of private property rights (i.e. banning guns) on property that is generally open to the public.

Believe I have made similar statements. If you want to restrict or limit access to your private property fine. But if you offer otherwise unrestricted access I should not face being made a criminal when every other yahoo is walking in and out without being discriminated against.

[RPB]

I'm still pushing an angle of "not batman related, but car security related" too.

YOU are safer when my gun is concealed in my IWB holster on a reinforced belt inside my pants, than you are after a burglar takes it from my car in the campus parking lot.

San Antonio College
Survey shows inadequate lighting on campus
http://www.theranger.org/survey-shows-i ... -1.2411311" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A walk through the center of this campus after dark to see if lighting is adequate resulted in finding more than 35 outdoor lights burned out or not on because timers needed attention.

A communication breakdown in who is supposed to be checking lights may be to blame.
Tammy Kothe-Ramsey, Student Government Association president and psychology sophomore, and campus police representative Sgt. Robert Tomlinson walked throughout the campus Monday at about 6:45 p.m. in a survey requested by The Ranger.

This came a week after the shift to daylight-saving time and a few weeks after the college suffered a string of daylight assaults, which included robberies, thefts and assaults.

While walking past Lot 10, west of the visual arts center, a student approached Tomlinson and reported a man in a hooded jacket attempting to open car doors in the parking garage. Tomlinson called an officer to take her report.

Campus Police themselves admit:
Many criminals use college campuses as shopping malls,...
http://www.angelo.edu/services/universi ... aries.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't understand why every campus police isn't FOR campus carry. If I were on a campus police dept, I'd rather interrupt a vehicular burglar with a stereo in his hand than the gun a CHL had to store there so he could go inside a building.

Campus Parking Lots are currently an "all-you-can-eat buffet" where thieves are more likely to find
FREE GUNS, since licensees must store them there. (Compared to other parking lots)
If thieves can foresee that, so "Reasonable Persons" should be able to.

It is therefore foreseeable that the Universities are increasing the likelihood of a loss of property, and property damage, by their policies.

I assume Universities are taking adequate precautions
Also, I'd call the "Escort Service" to be escorted to my car, and even escorted from building to building, until things change. I'd hope they have the manpower to escort everyone, and watch every car too.

[Embalmo]

Guys,

I just got back about an hour ago and the student body was overwhelmingly for campus carry. Out of about 75 commenters, there were 3 against (little black girl, overly emotional defensive white girl, and beefy white guy). Sgt. Benitez of the university police started the affair by delivering the tired monologue that the police won't be able to tell the bad guys from the good guys. We all lined up at the mike and took turns unraveling his ridiculous assertions.

Several of us had empty holsters and every pro campus carry comment was met with applause. I commented that every "what if" scenario could happen anywhere away from the university and we've had over a decade to prove that the "what ifs" just don't happen. I also mentioned that I almost didn't go because I was afraid to walk a mile by myself in the dark and I was worried that my gun might be stolen by a criminal while the forum was being conducted. Overall very positive, civil and VERY pro CHL. On Monday the student senate will vote on a whether or not to send an anti-campus carry recommendation to the state legislature.

Embalmo

[RPB]

Thanks for the good report.

If I recall, Benitez is the one I quoted saying he couldn't protect our cars from burglary (see below).............. so we should store our guns in them while we go inside for a few hours lol


Like I always say ... I can't understand why every campus police isn't FOR campus carry.
If I were on a campus police dept, I'd rather interrupt a vehicular burglar with a stereo in his hand than the gun a CHL had to store there so he could go inside a building.
If thieves can foresee that guns are likely to be in cars on campuses, "Reasonable Persons" should be able to.

I can't imagine fellow students wanting to walk to their cars, knowing some thief may be awaiting them in the parking lot with the gun he stole from my car .... because I had to leave it there. They feel safer then, than if I had it with me?
We just gotta get these people thinking, instead of lisenting to the brady bunch junk and drinking the koolaid (reference to Jim Jones followers blindly believing all he said).
(subliminally chanting "take the red pill" [ reference to "The Matrix"])

Let us know about the vote too ....... should be interesting

http://star.txstate.edu/content/conceal ... nday-night" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"ASG’s proposed resolution reads students agree with the university’s policy that concealed handguns on campus are and should remain prohibited. However, the resolution was authored to state ASG is issuing it on behalf of the majority of the student body, despite the fact the forum has not taken place"

http://star.txstate.edu/content/top-10- ... san-marcos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Burglary of vehicles may be less numerous on university properties than in the city, but UPD Capt. Daniel Benitez said theft is still an issue on campus.

“It’s more the crimes of opportunity,” Benitez said. “If a student leaves their iPhone sitting on the bench or sitting in a library cubicle, they go off to another floor, stay there for about 45 minutes and then come back and see it (the iPhone) is missing or something like that, that’s our biggest one.”

Smash and grabs do happen on campus, Benitez said, adding students should never leave valuables in plain sight within their vehicles.

Benitez said a lot of burglary of habitation is attributed to people being too trusting about their belongings, not unlike the rest of theft on campus and in the parking garages.

“We do have the occasional burglary of a habitation, which is residence halls, where people leave their doors open and unlocked and people just walk in, grab stuff and head out,” Benitez said.