Bicycle Carry and General Carry

[Abraham]

mkosmo,

How can that be if the law says otherwise?

Is your LEO friend aware of the new law and is willing to test it?

[boomerang]

A LEO buddy of mine warned me not to test this. If a CHL fails to produce to him, he was told to book them with UCW. He said the Harris County DA will take the charge, and most judges here would likely convict you.

The way 46.15 is written, if they're not carrying their CHL plastic, they're in the same boat as someone without a CHL.

[Abraham]

So it doesn't reconcile with the law passed Sept 1st, thus the new law can and will interpreted rather being a concrete law?

Or...?

[boomerang]

The change removed the penalty in GC 411 for failure to display CHL and ID when a peace officer or magistrate asks for ID.

It didn't change the "carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license" language for "NONAPPLICABILITY" in PC 46.15.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IANAL

[Abraham]

So, if I understand this correctly, though the new law (having a valid CHL, while not immediately in your possession, means no penalty, of Sept 1) is now on the books, certain LEO's will treat you as if you as if you are carrying an unlicensed concealed weapon if you fail to produce the CHL when demanded?

If that's the scenario, why would the powers that be, flaunt the new law?

Aren't they obliged to honor it?

Or do they get to pick and choose the laws they like and ignore the ones they don't, kinda like criminals...?

[srothstein]

It is not that they get to pick and choose, but more like a conflict in the law that needs to be cleaned up. Currently, there are two laws that have a slight conflict. The law in the Penal Code granting the exception to unlawfully carrying specifies that you are carrying a weapon AND your CHL. If you do not meet this law, you are now unlawfully carrying your weapon.

There is a law in the Government Code that still requires you to present your CHL to a police officer if you are carrying and asked for ID. There is now no penalty for not presenting the CHL, for example if you just forget to when you give your DL.

Common sense would say that as long as you have a valid CHL, you are not unlawfully carrying if you do not have it with you BUT you cannot always use common sense with the law. We tried to get the duty to notify the police officer repealed. We were unable to actually get it repealed and compromised on no penalty for not doing so. But, I don't think anyone looked at the way the exception was worded. It will be a long time until we get that law changed since cops cannot be counted on to verify that you have a valid CHL all the time if you do not have it with you. We have no way to verify other states CHL's on the spot yet, and even our state computers go down occasionally. So, the law will still require you to have the CHL with you or risk being charged with unlawfully carrying.

This is actually a somewhat reasonable way to do things. Until we successfully do away with PC 46.02, you are guilty of the offense when carrying until you can prove you are not guilty. You can do that by having the CHL with you or by showing it later.

[boomerang]

As long as you're in your car or on your own property or hunting, it shouldn't be a problem. Just like someone with no CHL.

Walking or riding a bicycle in public? I suggest carrying your plastic if you're carrying a gun. The additional weight penalty is insignificant.

As always, your mileage may vary, and concealed means concealed.

[Abraham]

Again, if I understand correctly, given the conflict of laws - the new Sept 1/no penalty law should not be relied upon.

If you possess valid CHL status and you're carrying, but don't have the license in your possession and you're stopped by the police - you're toast in many situations, "depending" on the LEO's orders from on high.

Theater of the absurd at it's finest.

I'm rather obsessive about being certain I have my CHL with me - however, even I've left it home once by dint of picking up the wrong card when in a hurry. So, no matter how careful one normally may be, an honest mistake can happen and bingo, you're carrying, but have no CHL with you. Presumably the new law can help honest people in examples like this. Except, that it's built on a house of cards...

This sort of legislative incompetence is disheartening to say the least...

[KD5NRH]

We tried to get the duty to notify the police officer repealed. We were unable to actually get it repealed and compromised on no penalty for not doing so.

Even without its own penalty, since it is still an offense, couldn't it be considered "criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic?"

[psehorne]

One of the very weird quirks in Texas law is that if you are carrying a pistol on or about you, and if you have a CHL, you must have the CHL and either a Texas Driver's License or a Texas ID card with you. Section 411.205 of the Govenrment Code says you will produce botht he driver's license (or ID Card) and the CHL on demand of a peace officer if you are carrying. It does not limit this to driving.

So, if you are riding your bicycle, you may carry a concealed weapon if you have your DL and CHL with you at the time. The good news is that there is no penalty for not obeying this since Sep. 1.

The Penal Code does not say there is no repercussion for failure to display your CHL. It's just that the explicit suspension for 30 days has been removed. The law / requirement to display still stands. Same as getting a speeding ticket, or a ticket for a taillight being out... you don't get your DL suspended, but you still get a ticket. Failure to display could still result in a class C misdemeanor charge. IMHO.

[Liberty]

One of the very weird quirks in Texas law is that if you are carrying a pistol on or about you, and if you have a CHL, you must have the CHL and either a Texas Driver's License or a Texas ID card with you. Section 411.205 of the Govenrment Code says you will produce botht he driver's license (or ID Card) and the CHL on demand of a peace officer if you are carrying. It does not limit this to driving.

So, if you are riding your bicycle, you may carry a concealed weapon if you have your DL and CHL with you at the time. The good news is that there is no penalty for not obeying this since Sep. 1.

The Penal Code does not say there is no repercussion for failure to display your CHL. It's just that the explicit suspension for 30 days has been removed. The law / requirement to display still stands. Same as getting a speeding ticket, or a ticket for a taillight being out... you don't get your DL suspended, but you still get a ticket. Failure to display could still result in a class C misdemeanor charge. IMHO.

I can't find where it is specified as a class C or anyother type of misdemeaner.

[juggernaut]

Failure to display could still result in a class C misdemeanor charge. IMHO.

It should take you all of five seconds to back that up with a cite.

[srothstein]

One of the problems with Texas law is that we have a few offenses that are designated as crimes but no punishment is defined. The Penal Code says (section 12.03(b)) that any thing designated as a misdemeanor is a class C misdemeanor if no other level is specified. It also says (section 12.04(b)) that anything designated a felony is a state jail felony unless otherwise designated.

But it does not say what to do with offenses that are specified without a level at all (such as failure to display or failure to come to the aid of a peace officer when requested - Code of Criminal procedure article 2.14 and 2.15).

Penal Code chapter 12 also says all penal laws enacted after the date of the Penal Code enactment are classified according to the code and all offenses are either felonies or misdemeanors.

So I really have no idea what the courts would do with this if someone decided to try to prosecute it. Especially in the case of failure to display your CHL, where the history clearly shows it was a misdemeanor to begin with, then lowered to only a misdemeanor on your second offense. I could see some enterprising anti-CHL DA trying to make it a class C now.

[boomerang]

Penal Code chapter 12 also says all penal laws enacted after the date of the Penal Code enactment are classified according to the code and all offenses are either felonies or misdemeanors.

But failure to display is not part of the Penal Code. It's part of the Texas Government Code dealing with the DPS.

Since no penalty is specified, it logically follows that the penalty for GC §411.205 is no worse than the penalty for GC §411.204.
Or the penalty for GC §411.177 time limit violations.