Odd situation at Academy Sports

[yerasimos]

What I like to do/have been taught for these unknown contacts:
* two-handed, eye-level "fence"
* 90-degree step-off from unknown contacts' vector

Can you explain more on point 1 and 2?

Point 1: AFAIK, the root "source" would be Geoff Thompson in the UK; I was taught/learned aspects of it second-hand. Basically, you want to get your hands up at least to shoulder level, palms facing forward. In most cultures, the outward-facing palm connotes a message for the observer to "stop". The hands serve as both a visual and a floating physical barrier when dealing with an unknown contact. Also, this position transitions nicely to various temporary defaults that can mitigate the damage if the unknown contact strikes you first.

Point 2: this gets you "off the X" at least temporarily, and re-orientates you so that you can get a minimal, peripheral visual check of your former 6, in case the unknown contact in front of you is just a decoy to distract you from an accomplice seeking to attack you from behind. I learned this from the same bunch that has served as a major stateside conduit for the "fence"; as far as I know, point 2 is original with them.

Does anybody here let the panhandlers get close enough to you where they could do damage quickly? I know for a fact I did, mainly because I did not want to increase the hostility of the situation by yelling "Back up. Don't get close to me!" I do not know how to handle a situation like that comfortably where I can still feel that I maintain complete control of the situation. Any pointers?

Anyone can get ambushed, given worst-case scenario timing and circumstances. Just about everyone falls short of Jeff Cooper's ideal of constant condition yellow. Even the people I learned from admitted to occasionally getting surprised and "taken in" by unknown contacts.

Keep the verbal loop as brief and simple as you can. "Back up" and "go away" are clearly understood and roll off the tongue pretty easily. There is no need to insult or provoke the other person, but neither is there any need for politesse or charm. Some espouse using profanity for its effectiveness; these same people also recognize that if used, it must be used for the purpose of emphasis, not for insulting the other person. (Think about it a little and it should be easy to figure out.) Myself, I would prefer to use escalating vocal volume over profanity, because of the witness effect (as ELB alluded to) and to keep the loop simpler.

Just to be clear, I would prioritize dealing with the unknown contact over taking extra effort to prep witnesses or trying to access a non-deadly force tool like pepper spray, particularly when the unknown contact is within 6 feet. If the fight starts at that distance, you must be alert and start with whatever is in hand right then, which is frequently nothing. Plan accordingly.

[frankie_the_yankee]

What surprises me is how many people lie to these bums and say they don't have any money.

I would not degrade myself that way. It has been my long habit to carry a few hundred dollars in cash pretty much all the time. Yeah, I know all about ATM cards and credit cards, and I carry them too. But like the song says, I "....always carry cash."

So If some street beggar asks me for money, they get a firm, "No!" If they don't like it, it's too bad. The most that any of them have ever done is to cuss me out as I keep walking by towards my destination. And as I've said many times before, I am not going to physically intimidate anyone. But something tells me that these people can sense that forcing the issue with me might turn out badly. 'Cause they never do.

If they irritate me enough I call 311 on my cell phone and make a complaint to the cops.

I've only given out money once in 7 years in Austin. I stopped at an intersection and saw a guy with a sign that said, "I just want to buy a beer." I was impressed with the guy's basic honesty, so I waved him over and gave him 5 bucks.

[KD5NRH]

So what would you consider to be the best way of dealing with a panhandler? Let them get within comfortable talking distance and be firm, or don't even let them get close and use increased vocal and physical (outstretched hand) methods to keep them at a safe distance, even if it could possibly mean increased violence due to them being insulted and may cause their drugged-out minds to "snap"?

After the initial comments, there are a couple of techniques that can be used. The main advantage, IMO, is that it gets the weak hand out there to block, keeping the dominant hand back, ready to draw or strike as needed. Of course, the control and throw he uses in the video works if you practice enough with a qualified instructor. (dislocations hurt a lot, and they're deceptively easy to do with most of these techniques, so don't practice these things without proper training)

[yerasimos]

So what would you consider to be the best way of dealing with a panhandler? Let them get within comfortable talking distance and be firm, or don't even let them get close and use increased vocal and physical (outstretched hand) methods to keep them at a safe distance, even if it could possibly mean increased violence due to them being insulted and may cause their drugged-out minds to "snap"?

This is not an exact science. If you can keep all panhandlers and other unknown contacts past Tueller range---great! However, in populated, built-up areas, that is a pretty unrealistic expectation, so we have to plan for people getting too close for our preference.

I guess you could consider the distance between you and the unknown contact as being inversely proportional to the verbal intensity; the closer he is, the more intense your words and delivery and the more evasive you should be with your body positioning relative to his. If a sketchy character is 7-10 yards away, you might be able to stop him with a relaxed fence and, "Hey buddy, stay there for me." If he closes in further, "Back up, man," with a little more aggressive/insistent body language. But if you try to stop everyone at 15 yards with an screaming, expletive-laden rant, expect some negative feedback (official complaints, people start screening your calls, etc).

What I typically say to an average, non-aggressive panhandler, in a semi-rapid delivery: "Sorry, I don't have anything for you." I begin with a bit of sympathy, then convey the idea that I am not giving them anything. I do not try to make eye contact with them, either, I just continue shuffling along my own way. If they persist, then the simplified unknown contact loop kicks in, with plenty of "back up" and "go away". That said, I have not encountered a seriously-aggressive panhandler for a long time. Maybe it is a Yankee thing. Part of it is also that after a few experiences with elements like these, you might learn to pick them out at a greater distance and preemptively avoid them by walking on the other side of a busy street or avoid looking at them directly/making eye contact so they are not drawn in.

This is stuff that is easily role-played with a spouse, SO or friends, and can be used more frequently and with less aftermath than using force/deadly force, so work it. If I was involved in an interdisciplinary training group and I had my way, this would get practiced every session.

[bigolbigun]

What I typically say to an average, non-aggressive panhandler, in a semi-rapid delivery: "Sorry, I don't have anything for you." I begin with a bit of sympathy, then convey the idea that I am not giving them anything. I do not try to make eye contact with them, either, I just continue shuffling along my own way. If they persist, then the simplified unknown contact loop kicks in, with plenty of "back up" and "go away".

This is also the tactic I usually use. But I have often wondered if my response of "nothing for you" angers the guy and resulted in a weapon being drawn (gun,knife,etc.) by the panhandler saying something like "we'll see about that". How quickly would I be able to react to that situation? What would be the best way to practice for such a scenario? It always give me a creepy feeling whenever I am approached like that by someone.

[yerasimos]

This is also the tactic I usually use. But I have often wondered if my response of "nothing for you" angers the guy and resulted in a weapon being drawn (gun,knife,etc.) by the panhandler saying something like "we'll see about that". How quickly would I be able to react to that situation? What would be the best way to practice for such a scenario? It always give me a creepy feeling whenever I am approached like that by someone.

I suspect that the final "for you" could irritate someone attuned to language's finer subtleties, but this generally does not include the target audience. Feel free to substitute "to give", particularly if you are so well paid that all you have are benjies and credit cards.

Ignoring them outright may motivate them to move closer to try to get their point across. Even a simple raised hand (a la "talk to the hand" but without the snarky verbiage) implicitly acknowledges them and may give them some ego satisfaction, accomplishes a quasi-fence, and communicates your disinterest.

The Dogcatcher, as promulgated by Suarez Int'l and the Dog Brothers, could be useful in 1-3 yard ranges where a panhandler could suddenly turn aggressive with a contact weapon. Transitioning to a passive default will help protect the head and keep you upright, but little else. There are no guarantees in these situations and at these ranges; it is just bad all around.

[Venus Pax]

All the time. Sob stories along the lines of visiting my mother in the hospital, ran out of gas, yadda yadda.

- Jim

My MIL and I had the "my mother is in the ER and my car is stranded b/c I'm out of gas" argument while in the hospital w/ Mars. I guess that one is a classic. We were waiting on a shuttle and she wouldn't leave us a lone, so I finally shamed her with, "If you're mother is in the ER, you need to be with her rather than worrying about your car. She's your first priority now." And she left us alone.

I've had people pull up in parking lots (usually women) and give me the out-of-gas story. I just tell them I don't have anything and high-tail it. So far, my biggest tool has been not sticking around for the rebuttal.

I've been poor, so I feel for people that are down. However, I think it's a bad idea to give money directly to someone you don't know, as your benevolence may be doing more harm than good. It also requires you to take your eyes off this person while you're fishing cash from your wallet, which puts you in a vulnerable position. If I have the idea that the person is truly down on their luck, I'll direct them to a local charity. Charity workers are usually more attuned to spotting a scam than the rest of us are.

[NcongruNt]

What surprises me is how many people lie to these bums and say they don't have any money.

I would not degrade myself that way. It has been my long habit to carry a few hundred dollars in cash pretty much all the time. Yeah, I know all about ATM cards and credit cards, and I carry them too. But like the song says, I "....always carry cash."

So If some street beggar asks me for money, they get a firm, "No!" If they don't like it, it's too bad. The most that any of them have ever done is to cuss me out as I keep walking by towards my destination. And as I've said many times before, I am not going to physically intimidate anyone. But something tells me that these people can sense that forcing the issue with me might turn out badly. 'Cause they never do.

If they irritate me enough I call 311 on my cell phone and make a complaint to the cops.

I've only given out money once in 7 years in Austin. I stopped at an intersection and saw a guy with a sign that said, "I just want to buy a beer." I was impressed with the guy's basic honesty, so I waved him over and gave him 5 bucks.

My line is not quite as direct as yours, but truthful. "I don't have any money to give you" is generally what I say. That is indeed the truth, as I have generally budgeted to my needs, and none of it is earmarked to give to some panhandler. I will generally give a cigarette if asked for one (if that is the only request), as I see this as more of a social gesture than handing out money would be. I also keep my cigarettes in my front left pocket, making them easily accessible without averting my vision and keeping my strong arm free. This is a general practice, and I will deny someone any kind of handout if things aren't reading out right to me. My physique, expression, and demeanor will generally deter someone from attempting to pursue any further requests.

[fm2]

.

What I like to do/have been taught for these unknown contacts:
* two-handed, eye-level "fence"
* 90-degree step-off from unknown contacts' vector

Can you explain more on point 1 and 2??

I am a slow typer, so some good advice has already made it to the thread.

1) The fence is harder to describe than show. Geoff Thompson is the guy who came up with it. For me it has two components; physical and mental. Physically it is roughly: Hands up, palms facing away ( universal stop sign) with fingertips about eye-level, with arms slightly extended. Mentally it is akin to a fence around your house's yard. The head being the "house" and the hands being the "fence". You are claiming your space, by physically occupying it,ie.... fencing it in.

2) if the UC is @ 12 o'clock; Move to 3 or 9 to check your 6 with your periforal vision.

Does anybody here let the panhandlers get close enough to you where they could do damage quickly? I know for a fact I did, mainly because I did not want to increase the hostility of the situation by yelling "Back up. Don't get close to me!" I do not know how to handle a situation like that comfortably where I can still feel that I maintain complete control of the situation. Any pointers?

That is the challenge to deal with the UC from afar, so you don't have to from arms length. You can do that by verbal and physical language. Verbally you can increase your volume, tone, and project your intent. Physically you can have a good strong fence, good erect posture and not look submissive.

It really helps to role play these and get good reps under your belt. It builds a plan, tests the plan, and builds confidence for the work you have done.


bigolbigun- the best way to practice for these situations is to role play them. Try them out, see how it goes, and adjust for success. Once you get the verbal part sorted out a bit, start thinking about the physical and how to effectively deal with that.

[bcperry2000]

in situations like this i usually act like i'm deaf or blind. that seems to work alot of times. it also works when confronted by girl scouts :)

[numist]

in situations like this i usually act like i'm deaf or blind. that seems to work alot of times. it also works when confronted by girl scouts :)

Not me, when there's cookies involved the girl scouts get my undivided attention!
Thin Mints all the way!

[nedmoore]

The bottom line is that most of the folk's on this forum would be more than happy to help a person who truly needed help. The problem is that so many people give so many sob stories that we fall for it. I think that Looking at this would take care of many of the problems that good guys like us deal with.

[bcperry2000]

in situations like this i usually act like i'm deaf or blind. that seems to work alot of times. it also works when confronted by girl scouts :)

Not me, when there's cookies involved the girl scouts get my undivided attention!
Thin Mints all the way!

yeah, if you're looking for cookies that's great :) seems these days i get hit up for cookies everywhere i go. work, school, walmart.....i keep wondering when i'm gonna see them outside gun ranges. one thing i always thought would be a good idea....is if they sold them to drunk people on lower greenville on the weekends. they'd probably make a killing doing that.

[OnTexasTime]

I will use this thread to share my encounter last Friday afternoon.

I was the only person in my small office building around 1PM when I heard the bell on the front door open. I went forward to encounter a poorly dressed man making his way to the back of the front office. He said "I need money, I need to eat".

In our small town we do not encounter panhandlers that often, but I am used to dealing with them when I am in Dallas or Austin on business. Having one in my office, was a little more unsettling. While he was saying that he seemed to be looking past me to see if anybody else was there. I walked past him to the front door before I answered him.

I told him that we did not have any money to give out and that he needed to leave. Without saying anything he walked on out the open front door. I had moved myself to the front door in case I had any trouble from him I walked to be able to put myself out the door and not deal with him in the office.

I then called the police dept. and gave a description of him as panhandling in the area. I listened to the scanner and an officer caught up with him several blocks away and told him to quit panhandling. She also told the dispatch to write down the name Willie xxxx, in case something showed up stolen in the area. While I had not known the face, I recognized the name as one of our local crack-heads and small time thief's.

(If you are wondering where my handgun was, it was it was in my truck. I had stopped at the Post Office before lunch and taken it from its holster and left it in the truck. Like many times when I return, I failed to put it back on.)