Improper 51% posting?

[Txfire409]

We all know that improper posting of 30.06 can be ignored but is the same true for 51% signs? If a business has a 51% sign posted and you know for a fact that less than 51% of their business comes from the sale of alcohol for on premise consumption, can you just ignore it?

[bayouhazard]

Yes. However, the standard is whether TABC has determined them to be 51% regardless of actual sales.

The law says it is illegal to carry in 51% buildings. There is a defense to prosecution if the TABCrequired sign isn't posted but merely posting a 51% sign doesn't make a building off limits.

[RKlenka]

I believe you can look them up: http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publicinquiry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (i think that's the link) to see if they are allowed to have the sign. If not i think (not certain) that they can actually be fined for it.

[RX8er]

Plus, you can also file a complaint if they have the wrong sign posted.

I successfully did this for a restaurant in Keller. They had about 100 red signs around but yet required a blue. When I sent an email to the contact us manager, it went unanswered. When I sent another and informed them I would contact TABC if there wasn't a response, I received one that night. Their answer, in short, was that they didn't care and were being extra cautious in the eyes of the TABC and were allowed to post either of the two signs. I replied that I didn't think they were correct and pointed them to the law. When I didn't get a response again, I filled out the complaint and sent it, along with my email correspondence. About 2 months later, all the red signs were removed and replaced with a blue over each bar area. I don't know if it was my complaint or not that resolved it as I didn't get a response back from TABC.

[Scott in Houston]

The actual site for inquiry is http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publicinquiry/Status.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's excellent and I use it all the time, especially before going out to ensure where we are going are 'ok' to carry.


I would NOT recommend alerting the restaurant that their signs are wrong. I'd go to TABC directly and let them handle it. Honestly, they're not that great about handling it, but sometimes they respond quickly. Either way, if you go to the restaurant first, you may alert them to the fact that a patron is concerned about whether to carry and if they're educated, they may then resort to a 30.06. If it comes from TABC, they won't think it's anything other than being compliant with their rules/laws.

[RX8er]

Every complaint that is filed is identified if it was Leo, tabc or citizen so they would know.

It most cases, I'd agree with you but in this case, I'd hazard to say that most of their patrons are carrying and don't think they have the stomach to put up the 30.06.

[HadEmAll]

Rcently I saw an almost comical 51% sign in a SideWok cafe. This is a small Chinese buffet inside a mall. You order at a counter, the public never goes past the counter, and the signs are posted high on a wall behind the counter. After you receive your styrofoam tray across the counter, your only eating option is at tables belonging to a common food court in the mall.

They do sell beer, but no way it's even close to 51% of sales.

So comical I'm not going to bother reporting.

SideWok in Wonderland (formerly Crossroads) mall in San Antonio if you want to check it out.

The mall itself is not posted.

[Txfire409]

Thanks for the answers guys. The business in question is a mexican restaurant in Port Arthur. Of course they serve alcohol but their main business is obviously in the form of food sales. Several months ago I visited Spec's Liquors in Beaumont and they had a 51% sign on their door as well. I called them when I got home and informed the manager of the improper posting. She argued with me about it and did not understand the "on premise consumption" part. She thought that it was valid simply because they sold alcohol and said TABC allowed them to post it. I also spoke with a recently former TABC officer and he said any business can post it even if it isnt valid.

[srothstein]

The former TABC officer was wrong, sort of. The Alcoholic Beverage Code, and the rules promulgated under it, specify exactly what sign must be posted in licensed premises. He was correct in that any location that does not sell alcohol may post the red 51 sign if they so desire. It would have no legal meaning if they do post it but there is no law or rule against it. Remember that the law makes the location prohibited based on the TABC determination, not on the actual sales or the the signs.

On Spec's we have a small potential problem. The law does say the 51% must be for on premises consumption, but their application has no way for TABC to determine how much is for on premise and how much for off premise consumption if they allow both. I think of Spec's as a package store, which normally means no on premise consumption but they may have a license that allows it for tastings and what not. This is why I recommend always checking the public database on the TABC site if you think it is posted wrong.

[Txfire409]

The former TABC officer was wrong, sort of. The Alcoholic Beverage Code, and the rules promulgated under it, specify exactly what sign must be posted in licensed premises. He was correct in that any location that does not sell alcohol may post the red 51 sign if they so desire. It would have no legal meaning if they do post it but there is no law or rule against it. Remember that the law makes the location prohibited based on the TABC determination, not on the actual sales or the the signs.

On Spec's we have a small potential problem. The law does say the 51% must be for on premises consumption, but their application has no way for TABC to determine how much is for on premise and how much for off premise consumption if they allow both. I think of Spec's as a package store, which normally means no on premise consumption but they may have a license that allows it for tastings and what not. This is why I recommend always checking the public database on the TABC site if you think it is posted wrong.

The 51% refers to and has to be for "the sale of alcohol for on-premise consumption". That in no way covers tastings as 1) they are freely given away and not sold, 2) it is illegal to purchase alcohol and consume it inside a liquor store. Therefore Specs has absolutely zero sales of alcohol that is consumed on premies.

[Keith B]

The 51% refers to and has to be for "the sale of alcohol for on-premise consumption". That in no way covers tastings as 1) they are freely given away and not sold, 2) it is illegal to purchase alcohol and consume it inside a liquor store. Therefore Specs has absolutely zero sales of alcohol that is consumed on premise.

Incorrect. A retail store MAY have a license for both. Many wine shops will have both on premise consumption and off-premise sales. They charge for wine tasting events, so they must have the on-premise consumption license, but must have the license as well to be able to sell for take home.

[jbarn]

The former TABC officer was wrong, sort of. The Alcoholic Beverage Code, and the rules promulgated under it, specify exactly what sign must be posted in licensed premises. He was correct in that any location that does not sell alcohol may post the red 51 sign if they so desire. It would have no legal meaning if they do post it but there is no law or rule against it. Remember that the law makes the location prohibited based on the TABC determination, not on the actual sales or the the signs.

On Spec's we have a small potential problem. The law does say the 51% must be for on premises consumption, but their application has no way for TABC to determine how much is for on premise and how much for off premise consumption if they allow both. I think of Spec's as a package store, which normally means no on premise consumption but they may have a license that allows it for tastings and what not. This is why I recommend always checking the public database on the TABC site if you think it is posted wrong.

The 51% refers to and has to be for "the sale of alcohol for on-premise consumption". That in no way covers tastings as 1) they are freely given away and not sold, 2) it is illegal to purchase alcohol and consume it inside a liquor store. Therefore Specs has absolutely zero sales of alcohol that is consumed on premies.

They guy you are contradicting has the most intimate knowledge of the TABC laws and rules of anyone on this site.

[NavyVet1959]

It's been a couple of *decades* since I've even been in a bar, but I have to wonder if a bar could get around the 51% rule by separating their drink charges into alcoholic and non-alcoholic portions. Say, for a $5 rum & Coke charge $3 for the Coke and $2 for the rum. For a $3 beer, charge $1 for the beer, $1 for the glass, and $1 for the potential urinal use. :)

Or maybe have a special -- beer + a few peanuts = $5, beer w/o peanuts = $6.

[Keith B]

It's been a couple of *decades* since I've even been in a bar, but I have to wonder if a bar could get around the 51% rule by separating their drink charges into alcoholic and non-alcoholic portions. Say, for a $5 rum & Coke charge $3 for the Coke and $2 for the rum. For a $3 beer, charge $1 for the beer, $1 for the glass, and $1 for the potential urinal use. :)

Or maybe have a special -- beer + a few peanuts = $5, beer w/o peanuts = $6.

If they broke out their receipts that way they could. However, the bar more that likely doesn't care one way or another about the type of sign they have to post, just that they got their license and can keep it valid so they can make money selling alcohol.

[NavyVet1959]

If they broke out their receipts that way they could. However, the bar more that likely doesn't care one way or another about the type of sign they have to post, just that they got their license and can keep it valid so they can make money selling alcohol.

One could even argue that the bars don't even care if a person carries in their establishment as long as the person keeps it concealed and no one knows (regardless of whether the person has a CHL or not). Criminals are not going to let a 51% sign stop them, so it only stops the people you least have to worry about.

A few years back, I found myself with a few friends going to eat lunch at a burger joint and after we were seated, ordered, and the food was brought to the table, I noticed a 51% sign over by the bar. The restaurant was somewhat dim due to the windows being tinted and it had been very bright outside, so it took awhile for my eyes to adjust to the darkness. From the look of the place, I seriously doubted that they received 51% of their income from the sale of alcohol. Given the situation, I just continued my meal and made a point to not go to that restaurant again. Too bad though -- they had good burgers.