Laws on Gun Storage?

[SewTexas]

My 18yo daughter has a model 60 .38 Smith in her nightstand. She is in the opposite side of the house from the master bedroom. She has instructions that if the alarm goes off in the middle of the night, she is to reach in the drawer and retreive the pistol and sit tight. If someone comes into her room unannounced and they don't belong there, she is to not pass go...not collect no $200...she is to squeeze the trigger. We have practiced at distances consistent with that from her bed to the door and she can keyhole with double action triggerpulls.

I like it.

[JSThane]

It seems to me the laws on "Safe Storage" for firearms are, in the main, merely a "tack-on" charge, a placeholder, or something you charge someone with if they "need jail time." If it was truly enforced, then every adult that leaves a firearm where a kid can get it would serve time. We hear about the idiots that leave a loaded gun on the coffee table where their toddler can grab it and shoot himself/parent/family cat/etc. We shake our heads. We hear about the parents that leave a gun available or give their kid the safe combination, and the kid winds up using that firearm to defend life and property. We clap our hands. We hear about the teen that in a fit of adolescent angst, grabs his dad's gun and does something awful, and we shake our heads again.

In ALL those cases, the letter of the law has been broken. But tell me, how many of them are actually prosecuted for it?

With the carelessly-armed toddler, a fairly good case for child neglect can be made there. Any injuries, damage, or deaths as a result of the parents' carelessness around their child can already be laid at the parents' legal feet. Why do we need an additional tack-on charge? Does the fact that a firearm was used make it any worse than if the kid had gotten hold of a power saw or the car keys? No.

With the child defending life and property, we applaud, and properly so. Self-defense and defense of others may be a defense against prosecution, but that doesn't mean the parents -can't- get charged and prosecuted. Why is this technically against the law, if it can result in otherwise lawful use in defense? I maintain that it shouldn't, and the fact that such "discretion" exists proves the law's not intended to be taken seriously.

And in the case of the angsty teen that grabs hold of his parents' revolver and commits a hastily ill-thought act, I don't think throwing a Failure to Secure charge at the parents would have any legal benefit.

Realistically, I know there's not much chance of repealing this law, but in my opinion, Safe Storage laws are dumb, potentially dangerous, and on very shaky legal ground. They realistically serve no purpose, as they do not change behavior, and the thing the law is aimed at is not in itself harmful. They are dangerous, as the strict adherence to the law can actually prolong the danger from a criminal to the law-abiding, due to the time needed to access the gun. And they are shaky, because it IS a law that is selectively enforced, laying a pretty fair ground for discrimination. I think we haven't seen a legal challenge to it yet for the simple reason that prosecutors only select people already charged with other stuff to enforce this on; it becomes something else to pile on to encourage a plea deal. Once some over-ambitious prosecutor decides to use it in a "contempt of cop" situation, with no actual crime committed, I'd expect to see a bit more of an uproar.

But seriously, is there any realistic reason to have these laws, other than as "Feel good" legislation designed to soften and blunt the true anti-gun attacks? If there is, I haven't seen it.

[Dori]

The law in Texas does have "lawful defense by the child of people or property" as an affirmative defense to prosecution.

Also, in light of comments in the AD thread, I should mention this law also has "criminal negligence" as an element of the offense.

[tommyg]

I have one gun I carry the others are kept in a safe. The safe has an alarm sensor pointed directly at it the alarm is active

[kg5ie]

PC 46.13 covers most of the items being discussed in this thread but as was mentioned in an earlier post... the PC talks about penalties for making a gun available to a child, not specifics on "how" to store it. 46.13 gives relief (affirmative defense) to those making "a readily dischargeable firearm" to minors needing to use a gun for protection, but stops short on giving specifics on how or where to actually store a gun.

While there is a lot of common sense required (sometimes in short supply), my belief it that the most important thing is to CONTROL ACCESS to the gun from unauthorized users. Just think of how many of the past gun related tragedies would not have happened if the actual OWNER had maintained access control over the firearm.


IANAL thank God

[C-dub]

See, that's where I'm stumped a bit. It is starting to sound like an add-on. If used in self defense or defense of another the exception is there, but if something else happens they just add-on the accessible to a minor charge. The crime has still been committed, but no one knows about until something happens.

[cb1000rider]

The law in Texas does have "lawful defense by the child of people or property" as an affirmative defense to prosecution.

The problem for me - and with great respect for people on this forum - is that statistics say the combinations of minors and firearms is especially not good in the home. They're much more likely to be involved in a cause of harm at home than a successful outcome for defending against a bad guy.... (Reference needed)

You guys will have to help me with this, as I struggle, as a parent to figure out what that line is...

I believe children should be taught firearm safety, absolutely... But I'm not sure a 12 year old or a 16 year old can safely make a determination of when to pull and when not to pull at home... Even at 18 - if you teach them "see someone you don't recognize at the door" - may very well be not a good outcome. The converse is true, also... So in my mind it's not made up.

I remember in college, I came home for the summer (to an empty house). Around 3am, one of my local buddies woke me up by slapping me on the rear end.... I've had 0 bad guys sneak into my home(s). I've had at least one "not bad" guys sneak into my home - probably more than one...

As an adult, it's different.. And maybe that's where the changes are. No one sneaks in your house anymore. And now I've got security cameras, keep a K-9, and have a safe... But man, that transition, be careful.. that's all I'm saying.

[jmra]

My youngest can breakdown any of the Glocks, clean it, and put it back together blindfolded. When he's done the guns go back in the safe. Period.

[SewTexas]

The law in Texas does have "lawful defense by the child of people or property" as an affirmative defense to prosecution.

The problem for me - and with great respect for people on this forum - is that statistics say the combinations of minors and firearms is especially not good in the home. They're much more likely to be involved in a cause of harm at home than a successful outcome for defending against a bad guy.... (Reference needed)

You guys will have to help me with this, as I struggle, as a parent to figure out what that line is...

I believe children should be taught firearm safety, absolutely... But I'm not sure a 12 year old or a 16 year old can safely make a determination of when to pull and when not to pull at home... Even at 18 - if you teach them "see someone you don't recognize at the door" - may very well be not a good outcome. The converse is true, also... So in my mind it's not made up.

I remember in college, I came home for the summer (to an empty house). Around 3am, one of my local buddies woke me up by slapping me on the rear end.... I've had 0 bad guys sneak into my home(s). I've had at least one "not bad" guys sneak into my home - probably more than one...

As an adult, it's different.. And maybe that's where the changes are. No one sneaks in your house anymore. And now I've got security cameras, keep a K-9, and have a safe... But man, that transition, be careful.. that's all I'm saying.

See, that's where we're different. It's the life we've led.
When my kids were young we lived in the Texas Hill country, no one came up my drive without checking in first.
I had to explain murder to them when they were still in the single digits.
Then we moved into town in Colorado. The doors were always locked. No one has ever just walked in, even our best friends knock first, then come in.
We've been burgled, and robbed, each member of the family lost something. Some more than others, but everyone lost something, of monetary value, but also it took us a long time to get past it, teaching them the code, taking them back to the range and letting them shoot, that helped.
Then we had to explain "active shooter" to young teens.
Now we're in Texas.
My children value life, that's probably one of the biggest differences between them and alot of the youth walking around today. They wouldn't pull the trigger unless they felt threatened, but in that case, they would pull.

[Pawpaw]

I believe children should be taught firearm safety, absolutely... But I'm not sure a 12 year old or a 16 year old can safely make a determination of when to pull and when not to pull at home... Even at 18 - if you teach them "see someone you don't recognize at the door" - may very well be not a good outcome. The converse is true, also... So in my mind it's not made up.

It's not the age... it's the kid. Back when I was 14 (and dinosaurs roamed the earth ) I got a 20ga shotgun for Christmas. Shortly after I got it, I began keeping it under my bed @ loaded... with my parent's permission.

The biggest difference is how they're raised. I grew up around guns, shotguns mostly. When we went to my grandparents' house, my grandfather's shotgun stood behind a door frame. We learned early that it was an object to be respected and not ever touched, for any reason. The first time my grandfather asked me to go get it was a big day I'll remember forever. I ran into the house and told my mother and grandmother that he told me to bring it to him. Then, and only then, did I get it and carefully walk it back out to where he was. I was literally in awe that he trusted me to bring it. I think I was 9 or 10.

[DEB]

The law in Texas does have "lawful defense by the child of people or property" as an affirmative defense to prosecution.

You guys will have to help me with this, as I struggle, as a parent to figure out what that line is...

I believe children should be taught firearm safety, absolutely... But I'm not sure a 12 year old or a 16 year old can safely make a determination of when to pull and when not to pull at home... Even at 18 - if you teach them "see someone you don't recognize at the door" - may very well be not a good outcome. The converse is true, also... So in my mind it's not made up.

For me, I treated it as how I was raised, guns were never taught to be a panacea to my problems. So just like me, my son was around guns his entire life, even though some of that time was spent in the Military, I intentionally retired when my son turned 13, so that I could spend his formative years with him. I spent a huge amount of time with him, I took him shooting and hunting since he was very young, so a gun was never a magical instrument to solve all of his problems. When I worked for the State, short period mind you, I seen all of these young teens, who when they were young, when they flipped strangers off, cussed strangers and family out, it was laughed off by their parents as it was cute and funny. Then all of a sudden they were 13 and were bigger than Mom and it wasn't so funny anymore and now Law Enforcement is getting involved. I believe you can't take a kid in their beginning teens and start to teach them maturity, it has to take place when they are young. So based upon when one starts teaching their children, should be the basis on when you can start trusting them. Teaching morality and maturity isn't and shouldn't be a part time effort, it must take up a huge amount of time, personal time with your children, even doing things you might not like doing, because if you don't someone will. My thoughts and it has worked out for me and all of my siblings. So thank you Momma and Daddy for your teachings that have been passed down to at least another generation.

[Maxwell]

I was to shoot when I was seven. I was given my first .22 when I was nine, and by eleven I carried a .38 on my hip with snake shot (hill country rattlers) and a .22 for shooting squirrels and rabbits. I had my first 9mm at sixteen. The whole time I had full access to the guns in the house and the ammo, but if I every put them together without an emergency I would have had my hide tanned!

I was taught respect for them and safety was drilled into me. Now this was as PawPaw says "when dinosaurs roamed..." but I try to teach the same things to my Godsons.

Someone stated "it's the kids today." I disagree. Kids are kids and fundamentally they are no worse than we were. Don't deny it, we all had our moments... The problem, and again this is my opinion, is that there are many parents that do not teach basic values to their children. They are fresh souls, they only know what we teach them.

[Deltaboy]

I grew up with a loaded gun in my room from the time I was 7 till I left for college. Dad made me remove them if other minors were in the House for the Holidays and such. For every sad tale you can share I can find 2 that had very happy endings.