Mcdonald's Robbery

[TomsTXCHL]

....."Abraham".....Dying on one's feet is much better than dying on ones knees.

What do you recommend one do? Those romantic words mean very little outside of a good western. I'm sincerely wanting to know what you would do. Six armed guys burst into the place filled with women and children. I would love to think I could gun them all down but I cannot figure out how to get them all before they get me and possibly everyone else in the place.

I'm with 03Lr; we know that of six men several waved guns, but beyond that we really don't know how dangerous they were i.e. if they were ready to start shooting people or were just out to make a few hundred quick bucks by scaring the hell out of everyone.

But assuming their weapons WERE loaded-and-ready, then there should be no doubt that they would have retailiated had anyone started shooting at them.

[texanjoker]

This is a nightmare scenario. I had a co worker years ago eating when 2 suspects did a take over robbery. One had a ak the other a handgun. He chose not to get in a gun fight. They saw his fannypack and asked what was in it. He replied gun. They proned him out and took it along with his badge. He thought he was going to die, but didnt want gunfire directed at his family.

I knew another leo that got into a shootout with 4 armed suspects. He hit 3 out of 4

[chasfm11]

It's easy to read the outcome after an incident and say one way or another how one would handle that particular situation since it's already over and published in the news. I could never force myself to lie on the floor and wait to be executed. Since I cant predict the ending I would be participating heavily in the beginning. Dying on one's feet is much better than dying on ones knees.

While I understand the principal, I'm having trouble applying it with this situation. I guess we've all made our own assumptions about pieces of information that were missing in the story. Here are mine.

1. They waited until they will all inside before pulling the first gun and they had a signal where all of them would act together. My target selection computer would "tilt".
2. There were at least 3 guns. More than two and my target selection computer might get to "tilt"
3. They had spread out so that a visual sweep without turning your head would have been difficult or impossible.
4. I have yet to see a BG practice good trigger control. Assuming that I did manage to see what was happening and target and hit one bad guy, the sound of my gun going off would likely trigger a reflect action among the others and there would be greater than 2 other gun shots in a split second. Who knows where those rounds would go but the resulting chaos would likely mess up whatever next action that I originally planned. I was counseled that "everyone gets some before anyone gets seconds" but that strategy might be hard to pull of if a lot of things are moving at once.

There might be a lot of other factors. Is someone directly watching me while they are trying to prone out everyone? Do I have a chance of drawing undetected as I start for the floor? Overall, this situation looks a lot like the Kobayashi Maru in real life.

[rbwhatever1]

As for me personally I would have resisted and it would have been over in a few seconds one way or another. I just will never lay down and hand over my life or my families lives freely to an armed gang to do with as they please. Never going to happen.

Armed Thugs that prey on weak unarmed members of Society will never stop until an Armed Society confronts them head on and makes it extremely dangerous to be a Predator. They need to be killed. Their families need to bury their dead criminal relatives. They need to learn that Armed Assaults on a Free Society is extremely dangerous. Unfortunately good people will die before it gets better but it will get better and they have to be confronted by Society. 2 thugs yesterday, 6 thugs today, 10 thugs tomorrow, 15 thugs next week. Are we as a Society going to let them define our existence or are we going to meet them head on? One cannot expect Law Enforcement to be everywhere all the time and it's not their job to protect anyone.

I see only 2 options for dealing with these animals. Lay down and maybe never get back up or Fight.

No worries people, I never eat at McDonalds and I don't go to Houston! If you're ever in Bridgeport bring some ear plugs just in case i get a Big Mac Attack and we come under siege. Never had a Big Mac Attack but you never know...

[cw3van]

I have read all the posts regarding this robbery & sure a lot of good information here. I have to be honest with y'all, this type of situation where you have several BGs with firearms in a small retail business with innocents is one after 20 plus years of dealing with "what if" scenarios, this was the type that made us stay awake at night. You don't have a good answer. It seems no matter what you, do it's not going to end well. I sure don't have a good answer. This was the kind of event when, as a LEO instructor, we would give an answer the standard answer you must look at the "totality of the circumstances". If, God forbid, you're ever in this fix after reading most of the posts & replies here, as John Wayne would say "you'll do'.

[PhillRoath]

This is a nightmare scenario. I had a co worker years ago eating when 2 suspects did a take over robbery. One had a ak the other a handgun. He chose not to get in a gun fight. They saw his fannypack and asked what was in it. He replied gun. They proned him out and took it along with his badge. He thought he was going to die, but didnt want gunfire directed at his family.

I knew another leo that got into a shootout with 4 armed suspects. He hit 3 out of 4

I remember when part of standard training was to go over "The Onion Field" and why an officer should never give up their firearm. Tough scenario, but this places your faith in the bad guys actions.

[PhillRoath]

As for me personally I would have resisted and it would have been over in a few seconds one way or another. I just will never lay down and hand over my life or my families lives freely to an armed gang to do with as they please. Never going to happen.

Armed Thugs that prey on weak unarmed members of Society will never stop until an Armed Society confronts them head on and makes it extremely dangerous to be a Predator. ...

All of us would be making split second decisions, but this is probably what I would do. I have zero faith in these criminals not killing someone.

[JALLEN]

All of us would be making split second decisions, but this is probably what I would do. I have zero faith in these criminals not killing someone.

Well in this particular case, they did not.

Were they young thugs? older men? Sometimes, they scatter like roaches when the lights go on, as in that case in Florida where the two young looking perps tried a robbery at a so-called Internet Cafe. One older man pulled his .380 and fired shots, and the two perps couldn't get out of there fast enough. They were armed with a baseball bat and a pistol that might have been either a fake or a pellet gun etc. Once the shooting started, they forgot all about everything but vamoosing on the double.

I don't think you can count on criminals being particularly smart, not smart enough to weigh the consequences of various courses of conduct quickly. You mess up their OODA loop and take the initiative...... "Who Dares Wins!" provided you know what you are doing.

Remember Chris Kyle, the SEAL sniper who was murdered last year? He faced a couple of armed robbers at a gas station with pistols pointed at him close range, acted boldly, with the confidence that comes from lots of top-notch training and loads of experience, and shot them both dead. There has to be some advantage in doing all those hundreds of thousands of push ups in cold water, cold, wet, tired and miserable.

[TomsTXCHL]

You mess up their OODA loop and take the initiative...... "Who Dares Wins!" provided you know what you are doing.

It's great to hear the "voices of experience" in this forum. I took the CHL class recently mostly in support of my wife who wanted one, but while I have minimal experience with firearms since hunting as a boy, neither of us has had any other training or background in weaponry. Our friend who has worked as a Personal Protection specialist and has forgotten more about guns and danger than we can imagine, has concerns about our newly-discovered interest in handguns and personal safety, but concedes at least that we would surprise any BGs.

Anyway thanks for the conversations, I am all ears!

BTW my friend gave me "Lone Survivor" to read and now I'm a Seals fan big-time. Gotta get Kyle's book and see Mark Wahlberg as Marcus Luttrell also...

[nyj]

The split second that you would have to conclude that the place is about to be robbed by multiple BG's, that YOU are in danger and not just the clerk, and make the decision to draw and fire without knowing where the line of BG's end would be incredibly overwhelming and I do not believe most of us would have even seen this coming (unless you saw them entering from the parking lot).

[Abraham]

Certainly, "take over" robberies can happen at many different businesses - that said, I NEVER go inside a fast food joint.

They seem to attract more of this type robbery, besides the inside of any fast food joint is generally noisy, with aerosolized grease to be inhaled and abundant howling brats running hither and yon destroying digestion.

Now, get off my lawn!

[jmra]

Certainly, "take over" robberies can happen at many different businesses - that said, I NEVER go inside a fast food joint.

They seem to attract more of this type robbery, besides the inside of any fast food joint is generally noisy, with aerosolized grease to be inhaled and abundant howling brats running hither and yon destroying digestion.

Now, get off my lawn!

Tell us what you really think.

[03Lightningrocks]

And most important of all, who amongst us has the right to risk others lives because we are scared of danger to ourselves. Second... And get ready because I am about to say it the way it is... Only a darned fool would open fire on a person who can return fire with their loved ones sitting or standing right beside them. It is one thing to have a personal death wish. It is something else to put it on others.

Winners in battle know that living to fight another day far exceeds the honor of dying on the spot. What this means for a situation like this is, wait to see if opening fire is the only way. Why... Because you ARE going to be at an extreme disadvantage. Why not wait it out a few minutes to see if dying that day is necessary?

[chasfm11]

All of us would be making split second decisions, but this is probably what I would do. I have zero faith in these criminals not killing someone.

Well in this particular case, they did not.

Were they young thugs? older men? Sometimes, they scatter like roaches when the lights go on, as in that case in Florida where the two young looking perps tried a robbery at a so-called Internet Cafe. One older man pulled his .380 and fired shots, and the two perps couldn't get out of there fast enough. They were armed with a baseball bat and a pistol that might have been either a fake or a pellet gun etc. Once the shooting started, they forgot all about everything but vamoosing on the double.

I don't think you can count on criminals being particularly smart, not smart enough to weigh the consequences of various courses of conduct quickly. You mess up their OODA loop and take the initiative...... "Who Dares Wins!" provided you know what you are doing.

Remember Chris Kyle, the SEAL sniper who was murdered last year? He faced a couple of armed robbers at a gas station with pistols pointed at him close range, acted boldly, with the confidence that comes from lots of top-notch training and loads of experience, and shot them both dead. There has to be some advantage in doing all those hundreds of thousands of push ups in cold water, cold, wet, tired and miserable.

My vivid imagination fills in some of the missing facts from this story differently than yours.

1. I assume that they waited until they were all inside before initiating the robbery. My limited understanding of the normal layout inside a McDonalds building suggests that meant that they were spread out for more than 20 feet and not bunched together. It would have been almost impossible for me to figure out how many were involved because I would likely have tunnel vision toward the first one that I saw.
2. Since there was a group, I would have expected no less than 3 guns. As you point out, one or more of them could have been fakes or pellet guns but I would expect one or more of them the be real and loaded.
3. I've not seen many videos where BGs practiced good trigger control. My expectation of that is that a CHL firing at one of them would likely produce a reflex discharge from one or more of them so that there would be multiple shots fired in very short order. I seriously doubt that I'm good enough to figure out which of the BGs remained a threat, even if all of them appeared to be scrambling for the door. It would only take one of them panicking and trying to prevent people from following by spraying bullets indiscriminately back into the building.

I don't ever expect to have the training and discipline of Chris Kyle so that comparison for me is not valid. I get your point - it is more important to confidently act but I also know that many seconds often pass by for me before I know the actions to take. One on one or even two on one situations are different. My OODA loop probably tilts after I have to try to deal with 3.

[03Lightningrocks]

"........"Abraham".....
All of us would be making split second decisions, but this is probably what I would do. I have zero faith in these criminals not killing someone.

So your solution is to react in a manor that would insure they kill someone? Heck, you might even kill an innocent yourself. Count them again folks... Six robbers!! One person cannot win that battle in a crowded restaurant without being responsible for the deaths of many innocents. It is delusional at best to think otherwise.