Compliance

[gemini]

Keep in mind that in the situations I've seen video of, there is never one officer yelling, but anywhere from 3 or 4 to a dozen or more, yelling different commands, at asynchronous intervals, a maximum of noise, confusion, movement, distraction and more besides.

I've been in scores of situations like that. They all stem from a non compliant suspect. Usually the suspect has an edged weapon, but I have also seen people with guns acting the fool begging to be shot (literally). My thoughts are that it is best for one to comply when the police tell you to do something while pointing a gun at you

And when a "suspect" is trying to comply and STILL gets shot (or Tazed or Pepper sprayed)? I won't post links to video clips because we've all seen
many of them. But, unless there is an agressive move made toward the arresting officer(s), or a gun is pointed in their direction, what's the answer?
Not trying to knock LE community, but, would it be more or better Pysche assessment of officers, better/more frequent training in both firearms and de-escalation techniques? Older folks, persons with arthritis, hard of hearing, disabled vet, etc may not be able to immediately (or able) raise their hands above shoulder height, may not be able to go to a kneeling position. I'm not even going to bring in the possibility of a ND while a "suspect" is attempting to comply with a lawful order. Just wondering your thoughts. Thanks.

[RPBrown]

I also have trouble hearing in the normal voice ranges (wife swears its selective hearing) and wear hearing aids. Generally if you show that you are not a threat, both hands on the wheel, vehicle off, and DL & CHL in hand with window down, most officers will not have an issue. If you get into a situation where you think they may be giving you instruction, just tell them you are hard of hearing. They should understand.

Now, if it is a case where you have had to use or pull your weapon, make sure you holster or secure the weapon prior to them arriving. Also, be the first in any case if its pulled, to call 911 and when you do, explain to the operator that you are hard of hearing

[chasfm11]

Keep in mind that in the situations I've seen video of, there is never one officer yelling, but anywhere from 3 or 4 to a dozen or more, yelling different commands, at asynchronous intervals, a maximum of noise, confusion, movement, distraction and more besides.

I've been in scores of situations like that. They all stem from a non compliant suspect. Usually the suspect has an edged weapon, but I have also seen people with guns acting the fool begging to be shot (literally). My thoughts are that it is best for one to comply when the police tell you to do something while pointing a gun at you

I'm treading lightly here. I DO NOT want this thread to go South. It is best to comply with police but if you aren't sure what they told you, that becomes more difficult than you might currently imagine. That assumes that you have a reasonable opportunity to comply. An amped up voice is much more difficult for me to understand than normal speech. And as I say, I've noticed that it can take me longer to much longer to process what I've heard so that it might appear to someone else that I'm delaying a response. I only became as aware as I am now as a result of the testing that I've just been through.

I believe that when an order is issued, a reasonable gap afterward is needed to allow the person to respond. I can not recognize words as fast as a person speaking can create them. If there is no gap and another command is issued immediately, I'm distracted by trying to understand the second thing that was said instead of acting upon the first. A great example that I've heard on a video was "Get on the ground" followed immediately by "Do it Now." There was plenty of time to react. On another video, the order "Show me your hands" was followed immediately by "get on the ground". I can almost promise you that I will have more difficulty with that second sequence. I could easily be trying to display my hands while I'm trying to figure out the second sentence and then how to get onto the ground without my hands. And that assumes that I can clearly understand the "get on the ground" and that it is not coming through my ear as "blah blah blah blah blah". Depending on how rapid fire those commands were delivered and pitch range of them, it might take me a couple of seconds to process them. Those same words, spoken without a truck passing behind the person speaking them would have been clear as a bell to me. Add that truck and the words are nearly impossible for me to distinguish. Add another person speaking from yet a different angle and it is going to take me yet more time to sort it all all. Remember that a part of the brain is involved in speech recognition.

I'm assuming that 10 seconds in a compliance situation is a long time. During the testing, it took me more than more than a second to recognize several of the individual words. String them together and it is yet more difficult. The amazing part is that in normal speech, I easily follow even a person talking rapidly and can clearly and rapidly distinguish even a second speaker trying to talk over the first. It ends up being all about the environment. I'm assuming that any compliance situation will be the worst possible sound environment for me.

[The Annoyed Man]

Musician here too, although with a slightly different emphasis. I'm playing, and singing, but I'm also leading; and while I am very involved in the moment, there is a detached part of the back of my mind which is monitoring, calculating, timing, and thinking about what I'm going to say or do next after the song is done. It's kind a weird. Before I was a leader, I never really experienced that.

Anyway, I've pondered this dilemma too. I have face time with chasfm11, and we're in roughly the same age group. My ears ring continuously. Some of it is from gunfire, but some of it is from years on stage with loud sound systems. I don't hear as well in certain registers as I used to, and I find myself turning side of my face toward the speaker, and having to cup my ear. So if 8 or 10 officers are yelling commands at me, and I can't hear them clearly, I'm afraid of what I might do while trying to comply, and getting smoked in the process.

I think what I might do is just slowly lay down prone, face down, spread eagle and motionless, and wait for the officers to get closer and give me clearer directions. The poor guy in Dallas who got shot the other day which has gotten the local community up in arms, was clearly not in his right mind. Video clearly shows that even though he had a knife in his hand, he was just standing there at some distance from police. It looks to me like what happened is that the cop who shot him just got more and more keyed up because the guy wouldn't drop the knife and lay down, and the subject wouldn't comply because he was not right in his mind. OTH, neither had he done anything to threaten the LEOS. . . . .at least from the video I saw, which I assume is what everyone else saw.

So put me in the subject's place. I don't hear as well as I used to. I'm confused by conflicting demands, which I can't hear necessarily as clearly as I used to be able to. Like Purplehood said, I think you just do the best you can. For me, that means slowly laying down, face down, spread-eagle, and waiting for more clearly stated instructions. I might say, once they're close enough to hear me clearly, that I am a CHL in possession of a firearm, and what would they like me to do?

[chasfm11]

So put me in the subject's place. I don't hear as well as I used to. I'm confused by conflicting demands, which I can't hear necessarily as clearly as I used to be able to. Like Purplehood said, I think you just do the best you can. For me, that means slowly laying down, face down, spread-eagle, and waiting for more clearly stated instructions. I might say, once they're close enough to hear me clearly, that I am a CHL in possession of a firearm, and what would they like me to do?

If I were a person without a gun on me, I totally agree with you about just lying down. The complication comes if the officer is giving you instructions other than what you are doing and views your lying down as non-compliance. He knows that you have a gun. That is really the dilemma that started my thought process.

Specifically, here is a scenario. I've just had to use my gun. I've done everything right. I re-holstered. I called 911. I'm waiting to hear the sirens. I already know that my hearing is not going to be at its best and I'm going to try to laser focus on the first thing that I do hear. The LEOs arriving probably have identified me and may come in unholstered and at least at low ready. Take it from there. Remember, this is just one possible circumstance. It is easy if you clearly can hear what you are being told.

[texanjoker]

So put me in the subject's place. I don't hear as well as I used to. I'm confused by conflicting demands, which I can't hear necessarily as clearly as I used to be able to. Like Purplehood said, I think you just do the best you can. For me, that means slowly laying down, face down, spread-eagle, and waiting for more clearly stated instructions. I might say, once they're close enough to hear me clearly, that I am a CHL in possession of a firearm, and what would they like me to do?

If I were a person without a gun on me, I totally agree with you about just lying down. The complication comes if the officer is giving you instructions other than what you are doing and views your lying down as non-compliance. He knows that you have a gun. That is really the dilemma that started my thought process.

Specifically, here is a scenario. I've just had to use my gun. I've done everything right. I re-holstered. I called 911. I'm waiting to hear the sirens. I already know that my hearing is not going to be at its best and I'm going to try to laser focus on the first thing that I do hear. The LEOs arriving probably have identified me and may come in unholstered and at least at low ready. Take it from there. Remember, this is just one possible circumstance. It is easy if you clearly can hear what you are being told.

If I knew I just used my gun off duty and called 911, if I could avoid it, I would NOT have a gun in my hand. There might be a time as a leo that I might have to keep it out, but plenty of guys have been shot because of arguing. I would expect to be taken down at gun point and not the low ready. I would go to my knees with my hands up above my head so that when they arrived I was not a threat. I would tell them where my gun was.

[texanjoker]

Keep in mind that in the situations I've seen video of, there is never one officer yelling, but anywhere from 3 or 4 to a dozen or more, yelling different commands, at asynchronous intervals, a maximum of noise, confusion, movement, distraction and more besides.

I've been in scores of situations like that. They all stem from a non compliant suspect. Usually the suspect has an edged weapon, but I have also seen people with guns acting the fool begging to be shot (literally). My thoughts are that it is best for one to comply when the police tell you to do something while pointing a gun at you

And when a "suspect" is trying to comply and STILL gets shot (or Tazed or Pepper sprayed)? I won't post links to video clips because we've all seen
many of them. But, unless there is an agressive move made toward the arresting officer(s), or a gun is pointed in their direction, what's the answer?
Not trying to knock LE community, but, would it be more or better Pysche assessment of officers, better/more frequent training in both firearms and de-escalation techniques? Older folks, persons with arthritis, hard of hearing, disabled vet, etc may not be able to immediately (or able) raise their hands above shoulder height, may not be able to go to a kneeling position. I'm not even going to bring in the possibility of a ND while a "suspect" is attempting to comply with a lawful order. Just wondering your thoughts. Thanks.

This is a tough subject with many videos out there. "Trying"to comply can be an issue. Some bad guys act like they are trying to comply just to get the upper hand. People of all ages and persons with disability can kill you. How long are you willing to stand there holding an armed person at gun point that refuses to put the weapon down? In fact there are many training tapes that show how fast a suspect can switch from pointing a gun at their own head or down, and then shoot the officer before the officer can react. I love putting trainees through that scenario because they always fail and learn from it. The key is to not have a weapon in ones hand after an incident when the police arrive. For me I know I do not want to have a gun in my hand when leo's arrive if I have been involved in a shooting. Sure I can waive a badge, but so can any bad guy that has a chl or security badge, or even "real" badges that they have stolen and now carry.

[chasfm11]

This is a tough subject with many videos out there. "Trying"to comply can be an issue. Some bad guys act like they are trying to comply just to get the upper hand. People of all ages and persons with disability can kill you. How long are you willing to stand there holding an armed person at gun point that refuses to put the weapon down? In fact there are many training tapes that show how fast a suspect can switch from pointing a gun at their own head or down, and then shoot the officer before the officer can react. I love putting trainees through that scenario because they always fail and learn from it. The key is to not have a weapon in ones hand after an incident when the police arrive. For me I know I do not want to have a gun in my hand when leo's arrive if I have been involved in a shooting. Sure I can waive a badge, but so can any bad guy that has a chl or security badge, or even "real" badges that they have stolen and now carry.

But let's assume that we all agree that gun in hand = bad situation. Where ever the gun is, it is not in my hands and my hands are clearly visible and will move very slowly doing whatever I'm going to do. That still may not get me past the compliance issue.

[Pawpaw]

For perspective, I can sit across from you in a normal room and speak with you. Even if you speak in a very low voice, I can understand every word. Turn on a TV and start a dishwasher and suddenly, I can no longer hear some the consonants on many words. It becomes more of a hum in which some individual words disappear. It is really hard to guess in advance which situations are the most difficult. My ability to ear musical notes is not impacted which might seem strange. My particular problem deals in specific frequencies. Some of those affect the way that I hear some peoples voices under some conditions.

I suffer from the same symptoms, but when I go to get a hearing test I am told that I only have a minor loss in higher frequencies. Yet I know that if there is any sort of background noise I am going to experience extreme difficulties understanding what I am hearing.
I have no difficulties without any background noise.
There must be some other logical explanation (other than my ex-wife telling me that I just don't listen).

I got a chance to try one device Tuesday for an hour. I'm going to try another device starting tomorrow for a week. I can tell you that there was some improvement with the first one. It amplifies the voice range frequencies so that you can hear them better than the background noise.

Be prepared for about a 2.5 Kimber expense, however.

I've been wearing hearing aids for the last 8 or 9 months. When you get your trial device, I advise you to seek out noisy environments where you can attempt to have a conversation. This will prove valuable in the future. My devices pick up sounds equally well from the front or rear, making it hard to "filter out" the sounds you don't want.

I have an appointment next week and I will see if that can be addressed. Some hearing aids can be set up with two or more modes of operation which will allow you to tailor the mode to the environment.

One of the best things about today's hearing aids is their wireless capability. By wearing a small-ish device called a streamer around my neck, I can use my hearing aids as headphones. The streamer communicates wirelessly with the aids. The streamer can be used to control the volume or mode of the aids. It can also connect via cord or Bluetooth to your computer, cell phone, house phone (with adapter), TV (with adapter) or almost anything else.

Yes, each hearing aid cost as much as a Kimber. Thank goodness I only have two ears!

The streamer and telephone & TV adapters can be acquired free through the Texas STAP program

[esxmarkc]

chasfm11 this is a great topic. I have pondered the issue as I'm sure have many.

Here's one or more things I suggest that may help you avoid any such situation altogether.

Number one: If you are ever out and about and get "made" then it may be time for you to leave. I don't mean take off on a dead run but depending on the environment it maybe time for you to excuse yourself and head on out. I mean to say that if your clothing ever rides up and exposes your weapon or you brush up against someone and they turn back with a surprised look and head off to a corner and get on the cell phone then it may be time to have somewhere else to go. If you are followed to the parking lot and your plates are radioed in along with the MWAG call then I'd hope the information that you have a CHL appears on someone's display and a reasonable LEO addresses the call. You mentioned Eric Scott's fate in your OP. Had Erik immediately acknowledged the Costco employee and agreed to leave when the employee showed concern with his possession of the weapon he may still be alive today - he'd have been long gone by the time the police arrived or they may not have even been called at all.

Number two: If you encounter a "checkpoint" as your wanding experience you spoke of, then have you CHL and TDL out and ready before the encounter. Handle the encounter calmly and if the person you are dealing with is supporting an incorrect position (ala Sate Fair) then calmly ask to move it up the ladder - using words like "please" and "sir" and "m'am". Whatever you do don't get in a shouting match/argument regardless of how correct you may be. Be the most rational and calm person there.

Number three: If you are ever have to draw your weapon then once you fell the threat has passed carefully re-holster and get on the phone. You (or your spouse or friend or whatever) needs to be the on the 911 call explaining things and describing your (the good guy's) appearance - if whatever the dispatcher is telling you to do is rational then start complying right then and there. If you don't think it is safe to remain in that area then leave but get on the phone ASAP. There have been a couple of self defense CHL cases where the shooter left the scene for safety concerns and then made the 911 call and met the officers off site. The Pizza delivery guy in Indianapolis is the first one that comes to mind.

Number four: If one day out of the blue you are surrounded by officers with their weapons drawn and you don't have a clue how you got there then calmly raise your hands over your head and bend your knees until you get one knee on the ground at at time then forward until you are face-first on the ground. DO NOT say or use the word GUN in any form of a sentence. If you utter anything just say calmly "Please officers.... I am complying...." DO NOT reach for your wallet to show them your CHL. DO NOT reach for anything or make ANY moves with your hands toward your body. That's the best you can do.

Now, if you really think about it as long as you follow rule #1, rule #2 and rule #3 you will likely avoid ever needing to invoke rule #4. Remember: concealed means concealed. I just got my renewal in the mail the other day and have yet to be "outed". Bear in mind that I carry a brick of a Glock 23 in a pullover shirt and jeans every day.

My 2 cents worth. Best of luck to ya.

Mark C.

[texanjoker]

This is a tough subject with many videos out there. "Trying"to comply can be an issue. Some bad guys act like they are trying to comply just to get the upper hand. People of all ages and persons with disability can kill you. How long are you willing to stand there holding an armed person at gun point that refuses to put the weapon down? In fact there are many training tapes that show how fast a suspect can switch from pointing a gun at their own head or down, and then shoot the officer before the officer can react. I love putting trainees through that scenario because they always fail and learn from it. The key is to not have a weapon in ones hand after an incident when the police arrive. For me I know I do not want to have a gun in my hand when leo's arrive if I have been involved in a shooting. Sure I can waive a badge, but so can any bad guy that has a chl or security badge, or even "real" badges that they have stolen and now carry.

But let's assume that we all agree that gun in hand = bad situation. Where ever the gun is, it is not in my hands and my hands are clearly visible and will move very slowly doing whatever I'm going to do. That still may not get me past the compliance issue.

With no gun in hand and being compliant you should be good to go. There are rarely "perfect" scenarios for anybody. I haven't read about any chl holders being shot by the police but I have read about off duty and plain clothed officers that didn't comply with the responding officers commands and they were shot. I know I am going to do whatever they tell me to do.

[chasfm11]

This is a tough subject with many videos out there. "Trying"to comply can be an issue. Some bad guys act like they are trying to comply just to get the upper hand. People of all ages and persons with disability can kill you. How long are you willing to stand there holding an armed person at gun point that refuses to put the weapon down? In fact there are many training tapes that show how fast a suspect can switch from pointing a gun at their own head or down, and then shoot the officer before the officer can react. I love putting trainees through that scenario because they always fail and learn from it. The key is to not have a weapon in ones hand after an incident when the police arrive. For me I know I do not want to have a gun in my hand when leo's arrive if I have been involved in a shooting. Sure I can waive a badge, but so can any bad guy that has a chl or security badge, or even "real" badges that they have stolen and now carry.

But let's assume that we all agree that gun in hand = bad situation. Where ever the gun is, it is not in my hands and my hands are clearly visible and will move very slowly doing whatever I'm going to do. That still may not get me past the compliance issue.

With no gun in hand and being compliant you should be good to go. There are rarely "perfect" scenarios for anybody. I haven't read about any chl holders being shot by the police but I have read about off duty and plain clothed officers that didn't comply with the responding officers commands and they were shot. I know I am going to do whatever they tell me to do.

Sorry but you missed the point that that I was trying to make. I want to try again.

There is no gun in my hand BUT the arriving officers know that someone at the location had a gun. I submit to you that they may treat everyone present as though they are the one with the gun. I've re-holstered it but it is still there.
You are making the exact point when you talk about the plain clothes officers who were not compliant and got shot. In my case, it could well be because I'm failing to grasp quickly enough what they want me to do. That "quickly enough" I believe to be less than 10 seconds.

It makes no sense to me that I should end up being worse off after defending myself because of a police compliance problem but that is exactly the nightmare scenario that is going through my head. Until I can wrap my head around how not let that happen, it is going to remain my nightmare. I totally understand that the officers need to following their training and protect themselves. But I sure don't want them to do that at my expense - I'm not a threat to them. I totally get it that they don't understand that upon their arrival.

[JSThane]

It's not just the stopped person that can have hearing / perception issues. Sometimes, it's the cops.

A couple-three years ago, I had a little minor incident where someone Barney Fife'd on me with some made up story to the cops while I was off-duty. I suspect I may have accidentally exposed my holster while reaching for something inside a store, and the store manager panicked and made up some lie to get the cops there ASAP. Long story short, when the cops pulled me over and directed me to exit the car with hands up, at gunpoint, I attempted to inform them several times that I was LEO and packing heat. They never heard a word I said, and when they found my pistol (after cuffing me), they started to berate me for not informing them. I berated back a little for them not listening, but not too much - it was their stop, and I was at a bit of a disadvantage.

(The stop turned out fine; whatever the caller told them, they cops went back and chewed him out for lying to dispatch, then told him I was a cop - wish they hadn't. He responded with another bogus complaint to -my- department, which went nowhere, but still made me and several others have to do more paperwork )

[jnichols2]

For perspective, I can sit across from you in a normal room and speak with you. Even if you speak in a very low voice, I can understand every word. Turn on a TV and start a dishwasher and suddenly, I can no longer hear some the consonants on many words. It becomes more of a hum in which some individual words disappear. It is really hard to guess in advance which situations are the most difficult. My ability to ear musical notes is not impacted which might seem strange. My particular problem deals in specific frequencies. Some of those affect the way that I hear some peoples voices under some conditions.

I suffer from the same symptoms, but when I go to get a hearing test I am told that I only have a minor loss in higher frequencies. Yet I know that if there is any sort of background noise I am going to experience extreme difficulties understanding what I am hearing.
I have no difficulties without any background noise.
There must be some other logical explanation (other than my ex-wife telling me that I just don't listen).

The problem you both describe is very common. You can hear enough of those frequencies in a quiet atmosphere, but they are low enough to be easily masked by other sounds.

My testing checked those frequencies under both "quiet" and "noisy" conditions. My hearing aids were tuned to my ability to pick sounds out of noise, and also designed for noise canceling. There are no miracles, but I hear much better under noisy conditions now.

[chasfm11]

For perspective, I can sit across from you in a normal room and speak with you. Even if you speak in a very low voice, I can understand every word. Turn on a TV and start a dishwasher and suddenly, I can no longer hear some the consonants on many words. It becomes more of a hum in which some individual words disappear. It is really hard to guess in advance which situations are the most difficult. My ability to ear musical notes is not impacted which might seem strange. My particular problem deals in specific frequencies. Some of those affect the way that I hear some peoples voices under some conditions.

I suffer from the same symptoms, but when I go to get a hearing test I am told that I only have a minor loss in higher frequencies. Yet I know that if there is any sort of background noise I am going to experience extreme difficulties understanding what I am hearing.
I have no difficulties without any background noise.
There must be some other logical explanation (other than my ex-wife telling me that I just don't listen).

The problem you both describe is very common. You can hear enough of those frequencies in a quiet atmosphere, but they are low enough to be easily masked by other sounds.

My testing checked those frequencies under both "quiet" and "noisy" conditions. My hearing aids were tuned to my ability to pick sounds out of noise, and also designed for noise canceling. There are no miracles, but I hear much better under noisy conditions now.

I pick up a set of hearing aids today on a trial basis to see if they do help me. The company providing them told me that I'm "marginal" for improvement. That is why I'm being given the trial rather than a hard sell for purchase. I'm hoping that they do was you and the provider are describing but real world experience will either confirm or deny a benefit to me.

I worry, however, that it may not be a 24/7 thing. I work on vehicles and machinery a lot. The is no guarantee that I would have the hearing aids on during an encounter with police. I need to figure out what to do if that happens.