Compliance

[chasfm11]

I've been thinking about this subject a lot. Frankly, I've been hesitant to voice my concerns because of some of the heated exchanges that have taken place on other threads. I know that I'm hanging myself out there by even bringing it up but felt like it was something that I wanted to get some input about. To avoid going down the wrong path, please indulge me a little context.

When I first got my CHL and started carrying, I had a couple of worries: would I be discovered and what would happen if I had to use my gun to defend myself or my family. As a result of reading and thinking a lot over the past 4 years, I'm comfortable with the answers to both of those questions. I still don't know about the latter question but I'm no longer anxious about it.

Starting with the the Erik Scott situation in Las Vegas, I started to become anxious about compliance. At the end of the day, Erik was killed because the police said that he did not comply with their orders. Since then a number of situations including the Ft. Worth homeowner who was killed last year and now the 13 year old boy who was killed over the toy "assault rifle". My anxiety has grown over the matter.

Please hear me out. This is NOT about the police but it is about me. I'm older and my reactions have slowed. I'm working through hearing problems and will be starting a trial on mechanical aids tomorrow. I know for a fact that I have difficulty discerning any speech that doesn't come from directly in front to me. It isn't that I cannot hear that speech but it takes me measurably longer to parse what I'm hearing into the specific spoken words and process them. When fractions of a second count, it sometimes takes me many full seconds to understand and respond to what was said. I can also document that I have more difficulty when the words are delivered in a sharp, short, staccato manner.

I work very hard at situational awareness. I believe that I need more advanced warning of pending things (and I'm speaking generally hear, not just about self-defense) in order to respond to them. It is my compensation for being a little slower than I was. I'm at a loss, however, as to a means of compensating for my response to spoken words that I can't or don't anticipate.

I do understand what I'd be likely to face in a situation with LE. Rapid movements are bad, especially with my hands. My inclination is slowly raise my hands as high as I can and remain there as steady as I can until I've processed what is being said to. My fear is that while I'm doing that processing, I'll get more instructions to process and it could be easy for me get confused.

Paranoid you say? What are the chances that I'll have to deal with it? Frankly, I believe they are many times higher than my needing my gun to defend myself. My recent situation of trying to enter a town function and resisting an attempt by the security to wand me while I was carrying is but one example of how it could be triggered. Responding to the police commands that I knew were coming was in the back of my head during that incident. While I haven't had a traffic citation in many years, the possibility of one and of an LEO trying to disarm me during it are, I believe, higher than my being in a defensive situation with a criminal.

I'm not sure than non-musicians would understand but I'm practicing to perform a Bach orchestral work. The notes in it fly by quickly. There is but one fleeting instant in time for each note to be correctly played and if that note occurs after that point, it is wrong. 4 of those notes (16ths) have to occur in half of a second and some measures have 4 groups of 16ths in them. While I'm only slightly slower that what is required, it is still wrong. Almost doesn't count. My fear is that compliance in a LE enforcement encounter could turn out the same.

[txglock21]

I would like to respond with a "catch all" answer, but there are just too many different senerios(sp) to go through. The best answer I can give is to tell the LEO up that you are hard of hearing up front as soon as possible.

[Purplehood]

Make your best effort in any situation...that is all any one can ask you to do.

Just the fact that you worry about it makes me feel better. There are many folks who don't worry about such issues and assume that they will be and always are on top of everything when they really don't have a clue.

[drumbdummer]

I'm not sure than non-musicians would understand but I'm practicing to perform a Bach orchestral work. The notes in it fly by quickly. There is but one fleeting instant in time for each note to be correctly played and if that note occurs after that point, it is wrong. 4 of those notes (16ths) have to occur in half of a second and some measures have 4 groups of 16ths in them. While I'm only slightly slower that what is required, it is still wrong. Almost doesn't count. My fear is that compliance in a LE enforcement encounter could turn out the same.

I completely understand what you are saying here (I'm a musician too).

I think that the best thing to do is follow txglock21's advice and tell them as soon as possible that you are hard of hearing. In a traffic violation type situation, I would suggest this be the first thing that you tell the office while your hands are at 10 and 2 on the steering wheel. In a MWAG type call outside of a store, I would suggest raising arms slowly and stating loudly that you are hard of hearing and cannot hear the orders to comply with them. Keep the hands up and don't move until someone makes it so that you can understand the commands.

I hope that your upcoming Bach performance goes well!

[JALLEN]

Keep in mind that in the situations I've seen video of, there is never one officer yelling, but anywhere from 3 or 4 to a dozen or more, yelling different commands, at asynchronous intervals, a maximum of noise, confusion, movement, distraction and more besides.

[chasfm11]

I'm not sure than non-musicians would understand but I'm practicing to perform a Bach orchestral work. The notes in it fly by quickly. There is but one fleeting instant in time for each note to be correctly played and if that note occurs after that point, it is wrong. 4 of those notes (16ths) have to occur in half of a second and some measures have 4 groups of 16ths in them. While I'm only slightly slower that what is required, it is still wrong. Almost doesn't count. My fear is that compliance in a LE enforcement encounter could turn out the same.

I completely understand what you are saying here (I'm a musician too).

I think that the best thing to do is follow txglock21's advice and tell them as soon as possible that you are hard of hearing. In a traffic violation type situation, I would suggest this be the first thing that you tell the office while your hands are at 10 and 2 on the steering wheel. In a MWAG type call outside of a store, I would suggest raising arms slowly and stating loudly that you are hard of hearing and cannot hear the orders to comply with them. Keep the hands up and don't move until someone makes it so that you can understand the commands. I hope that your upcoming Bach performance goes well!

Frankly, I worry about that being enough. I've watched many of the videos of LE encounters and the expectation appears to be higher than that. I think it goes up measurably (the speed of expected compliance) when there is a gun involved. Any time there is more than 1 officer involved, my problem could get a lot worse.

It is the Bach Orchestral Suite #1 Overture and I'm playing oboe. The part is fast and very exposed in places. I'm the only non-professional musician playing in the group. It is quite a challenge for me as I only recently picked up the instrument after not playing it for over 30 years. My fingers don't move as quickly as they did but my breath control is even worse. MM=104.

[chasfm11]

Keep in mind that in the situations I've seen video of, there is never one officer yelling, but anywhere from 3 or 4 to a dozen or more, yelling different commands, at asynchronous intervals, a maximum of noise, confusion, movement, distraction and more besides.

I've seen a couple of those as well but I'll assume that the protocols of many departments include the requirement to have one officer o issue commands. I believe that I'm more than likely to encounter 1-2 officer situations. I'm not sure how anyone could deal with having multiple people yelling different things at them. Perhaps that was the underlying problem in the Scott case.

Noise and distraction are definitely factors for me. In a quiet environment, I have no issues at all. When background noises like traffic or crowds increase, my discernment gets markedly worse.

Others have suggested that I let the officer know about my hearing problems as soon as possible. I would try to do that but I worry about doing anything that doesn't appear compliant and talking back to an officer instead of doing what he/she is instructing could have that appearance.

[drumbdummer]

I'm not sure than non-musicians would understand but I'm practicing to perform a Bach orchestral work. The notes in it fly by quickly. There is but one fleeting instant in time for each note to be correctly played and if that note occurs after that point, it is wrong. 4 of those notes (16ths) have to occur in half of a second and some measures have 4 groups of 16ths in them. While I'm only slightly slower that what is required, it is still wrong. Almost doesn't count. My fear is that compliance in a LE enforcement encounter could turn out the same.

I completely understand what you are saying here (I'm a musician too).

I think that the best thing to do is follow txglock21's advice and tell them as soon as possible that you are hard of hearing. In a traffic violation type situation, I would suggest this be the first thing that you tell the office while your hands are at 10 and 2 on the steering wheel. In a MWAG type call outside of a store, I would suggest raising arms slowly and stating loudly that you are hard of hearing and cannot hear the orders to comply with them. Keep the hands up and don't move until someone makes it so that you can understand the commands. I hope that your upcoming Bach performance goes well!

Frankly, I worry about that being enough. I've watched many of the videos of LE encounters and the expectation appears to be higher than that. I think it goes up measurably (the speed of expected compliance) when there is a gun involved. Any time there is more than 1 officer involved, my problem could get a lot worse.

It is the Bach Orchestral Suite #1 Overture and I'm playing oboe. The part is fast and very exposed in places. I'm the only non-professional musician playing in the group. It is quite a challenge for me as I only recently picked up the instrument after not playing it for over 30 years. My fingers don't move as quickly as they did but my breath control is even worse. MM=104.

I don't know the oboe part in that particular piece, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's difficult. Some of those moving lines can really take practice to get into the fingers. As my nick implies I am just a dumb drummer.... (yes I spelled it wrong on purpose in my nick) so breath control is the least of my concerns!

As for the original concern.... I think you have a right to be concerned but you can only control your actions. I would handle it like I mentioned and pray for the best! I do think that most situations you might face won't involve more than 1 or 2 officers telling you what to do though.

[WildBill]

Others have suggested that I let the officer know about my hearing problems as soon as possible. I would try to do that but I worry about doing anything that doesn't appear compliant and talking back to an officer instead of doing what he/she is instructing could have that appearance.

I think that in most cases the officer[s] would tell you to shut up and comply with their orders. "As soon as possible" might be after you have both hands cuffed behind your back.

Make your best effort in any situation...that is all any one can ask you to do.

Just the fact that you worry about it makes me feel better. There are many folks who don't worry about such issues and assume that they will be and always are on top of everything when they really don't have a clue.

[RKirkwood]

I would like to respond with a "catch all" answer, but there are just too many different senerios(sp) to go through. The best answer I can give is to tell the LEO up that you are hard of hearing up front as soon as possible.

(Pre- CHL) Several years ago I got pulled over at night on a dark part of the highway. I turn off the truck and turn the inside lights on. Placed my keys on the dash and waited for the officer. My wife and son were in the truck also. I didn't understand why the officer had not come up and I could not see due to his flashing lights. My wife had to tell me he was outside yelling instructions for me to exit the truck (I couldn't hear him). Slowly I exit the truck and walked towards him but still could not understand what he was saying. When I got to him I had to ask for him to repeat everything he said because I was having trouble hearing. He was very professional in how he handled it and let me go saying the stop was because I crossed the solid white line after passing someone. I hadn't slept in 30+ hour and stopped at the next exit to find a hotel.

My point you may not be able to tell the officer right away because of the situation but by showing you're not a threat, no sudden movement, trying to obey or stay in position with your hands clear. I truly believe the shooting in the news are more of an exception. There are hundreds of contacts with LEOs & non LEOs that don't end up bad. Your concern is real but I believe the media has driven everyone to believe it happens every day.

[chasfm11]

My point you may not be able to tell the officer right away because of the situation but by showing you're not a threat, no sudden movement, trying to obey or stay in position with your hands clear. I truly believe the shooting in the news are more of an exception. There are hundreds of contacts with LEOs & non LEOs that don't end up bad. Your concern is real but I believe the media has driven everyone to believe it happens every day.

I understand and agree with your point. I've had several interactions with LE enforcement recently and none of them had the slightest problem. I certainly hope that it stays that way. I try to study all situations that I read or hear about where I can imagine myself. The real catalyst for this discussion was my exploring hearing assistance and recognizing just how difficult some situations are for me. I not being driven to think about it because of those news reports. I'm simply trying to use those situations in light of my better understanding about my hearing. Adding them together gets me thinking about compliance situations.

For perspective, I can sit across from you in a normal room and speak with you. Even if you speak in a very low voice, I can understand every word. Turn on a TV and start a dishwasher and suddenly, I can no longer hear some the consonants on many words. It becomes more of a hum in which some individual words disappear. It is really hard to guess in advance which situations are the most difficult. My ability to ear musical notes is not impacted which might seem strange. My particular problem deals in specific frequencies. Some of those affect the way that I hear some peoples voices under some conditions.

[Purplehood]

For perspective, I can sit across from you in a normal room and speak with you. Even if you speak in a very low voice, I can understand every word. Turn on a TV and start a dishwasher and suddenly, I can no longer hear some the consonants on many words. It becomes more of a hum in which some individual words disappear. It is really hard to guess in advance which situations are the most difficult. My ability to ear musical notes is not impacted which might seem strange. My particular problem deals in specific frequencies. Some of those affect the way that I hear some peoples voices under some conditions.

I suffer from the same symptoms, but when I go to get a hearing test I am told that I only have a minor loss in higher frequencies. Yet I know that if there is any sort of background noise I am going to experience extreme difficulties understanding what I am hearing.
I have no difficulties without any background noise.
There must be some other logical explanation (other than my ex-wife telling me that I just don't listen).

[texanjoker]

Keep in mind that in the situations I've seen video of, there is never one officer yelling, but anywhere from 3 or 4 to a dozen or more, yelling different commands, at asynchronous intervals, a maximum of noise, confusion, movement, distraction and more besides.

I've been in scores of situations like that. They all stem from a non compliant suspect. Usually the suspect has an edged weapon, but I have also seen people with guns acting the fool begging to be shot (literally). My thoughts are that it is best for one to comply when the police tell you to do something while pointing a gun at you

[chasfm11]

For perspective, I can sit across from you in a normal room and speak with you. Even if you speak in a very low voice, I can understand every word. Turn on a TV and start a dishwasher and suddenly, I can no longer hear some the consonants on many words. It becomes more of a hum in which some individual words disappear. It is really hard to guess in advance which situations are the most difficult. My ability to ear musical notes is not impacted which might seem strange. My particular problem deals in specific frequencies. Some of those affect the way that I hear some peoples voices under some conditions.

I suffer from the same symptoms, but when I go to get a hearing test I am told that I only have a minor loss in higher frequencies. Yet I know that if there is any sort of background noise I am going to experience extreme difficulties understanding what I am hearing.
I have no difficulties without any background noise.
There must be some other logical explanation (other than my ex-wife telling me that I just don't listen).

I got a chance to try one device Tuesday for an hour. I'm going to try another device starting tomorrow for a week. I can tell you that there was some improvement with the first one. It amplifies the voice range frequencies so that you can hear them better than the background noise.

Be prepared for about a 2.5 Kimber expense, however.

[Purplehood]

For perspective, I can sit across from you in a normal room and speak with you. Even if you speak in a very low voice, I can understand every word. Turn on a TV and start a dishwasher and suddenly, I can no longer hear some the consonants on many words. It becomes more of a hum in which some individual words disappear. It is really hard to guess in advance which situations are the most difficult. My ability to ear musical notes is not impacted which might seem strange. My particular problem deals in specific frequencies. Some of those affect the way that I hear some peoples voices under some conditions.

I suffer from the same symptoms, but when I go to get a hearing test I am told that I only have a minor loss in higher frequencies. Yet I know that if there is any sort of background noise I am going to experience extreme difficulties understanding what I am hearing.
I have no difficulties without any background noise.
There must be some other logical explanation (other than my ex-wife telling me that I just don't listen).

I got a chance to try one device Tuesday for an hour. I'm going to try another device starting tomorrow for a week. I can tell you that there was some improvement with the first one. It amplifies the voice range frequencies so that you can hear them better than the background noise.

Be prepared for about a 2.5 Kimber expense, however.

Let us know if you come up with a positive consumer report!