Grapevine Mills Mall

[BrassMonkey]

"Trained"? People on this board seem trained. But we don't have 275,000 members of the board now do we? :-) Be careful about making blanket statements about any group of people. Personally, I don;t trust anyone I am standing next that has a firearm on them until I know THEM. How am I to know that a guy with a CHL Card is competent?

30-06 allows them to ban us from the premises, inside the doors. Does NOT apply to parking lots. Still, I won't be shopping there unless the signs come down.

To reiterate a previous post, letters need to be polite and sent with the intent to educate. Try not to come across as outraged or patronizing. Let them know the benefits of having law abiding trained citizens in their business. They don't care about how much business they'll lose because they know how low the percentage is for CHLs in comaparison to the general population.

[KBCraig]

30-06 allows them to ban us from the premises, inside the doors. Does NOT apply to parking lots.

Of course it applies, if they post the parking lot entrances.

[tfrazier]

30-06 allows them to ban us from the premises, inside the doors. Does NOT apply to parking lots.

Of course it applies, if they post the parking lot entrances.

Check the Texas Penal code. Very specific, "Premises" is defined as inside the doors of the building itself. It does not apply to parking lots, drives, or streets. It states that 30-06 applies only to "Premises".

Here is a quote from the Texas Attorney General Letter Opinion No. 96-009:
'(3) “Premises� means a building or a portion of a building.
The term does not include any public or private driveway, street,
sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.' - excerpted from http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/LO96/LO96-009.pdf

[stevie_d_64]

Tell ya what...

As long as Grapevine Mills Mall has been on the anti-radar here and in a few other discussion boards, as long as I can remember...

I just can't see a reason to go there, because whatever I need that may be there I can get somewhere else...

And I'm not going to worry about where their 30.06 signs are, or their policies...

When I am visiting the Dallas area, and I need that "Mall" experience, I'll go to Town East Mall or many others that don't seem to have this negative fixation about guns...

Problem solved for me...

Sorry, I'm not disrespecting the discussion at all, I just think this one covered...

We could almost make this a sticky...

But thats just me...

[KBCraig]

30-06 allows them to ban us from the premises, inside the doors. Does NOT apply to parking lots.

Of course it applies, if they post the parking lot entrances.

Check the Texas Penal code. Very specific, "Premises" is defined as inside the doors of the building itself. It does not apply to parking lots, drives, or streets.

Yes, it is very specific, and here is what it says (pay attention to the part in red):

PC 46.035 (f) In this section:
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.

You may have noticed that is from PC 46.035; the definition given there only applies to that section, and to PC 46.03 (which specifically refers to the definition as given in 46.035).

It states that 30-06 applies only to "Premises".

The word "premises" only appears in PC 30.06 once, in the paragraph that says 30.06 doesn't apply on government property, unless it is a "premises or other place" that is statutorily off limits. Such as those listed in 46.035, for instance.

Since there is no definition of "premises" in Chapter 30, common usage applies. That means "premises" can include not just buildings, but the appurtenant grounds. There is no restriction on what kind of "premises" may be posted with a valid 30.06 notice.

Here is a quote from the Texas Attorney General Letter Opinion No. 96-009:
'(3) “Premises� means a building or a portion of a building.
The term does not include any public or private driveway, street,
sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.' - excerpted from http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/LO96/LO96-009.pdf

The AG was quoting the law as it pertains to schools (sections 46.03 and 46.035, as I noted above), in response to a query about schools.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with 30.06 notices.

Kevin

[tfrazier]

You raised an interesting couple of points regarding my "proof" and I'm a little less certain of my position now, but not yet convinced I am wrong...

Regardless of our beliefs on the parking lot issue, it's pretty obvious we all agree they won't be getting any of our money. I'll shut up about the premises debate until I become convinced I'm wrong or get clear and concise proof I'm right. Enjoyed the debate, though!

[Jason73]

30-06 allows them to ban us from the premises, inside the doors. Does NOT apply to parking lots.

30.06 absolutely DOES apply to parking lots - provided its posted IN the parking lot.


TEXAS CONCEALED
HANDGUN LAWS
AND SELECTED STATUTES

(the little white book that came in your DPS application packet)

Page 62 under FAQ

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ ... df#page=62

Q: If I drive to a shopping mall that does not permit handguns, will I be
allowed to park in the parking lot and leave my gun in the car?

A: If the parking lot is not posted with the sign described above, handguns
may be left in the cars. However, if it is posted in the parking lot
then you may not.

[KBCraig]

You raised an interesting couple of points regarding my "proof" and I'm a little less certain of my position now, but not yet convinced I am wrong...

Regardless of our beliefs on the parking lot issue, it's pretty obvious we all agree they won't be getting any of our money. I'll shut up about the premises debate until I become convinced I'm wrong or get clear and concise proof I'm right. Enjoyed the debate, though!

We're definitely in agreement about not giving them our money!

Here's one more thing for you to chew on:

§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder
with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
communication.

Nothing there about "premises". PC 30.06 only deals with "property".

[tfrazier]

It's just not fair for you to respond to my opinion with clear-cut facts and reasoning! If everybody did that we wouldn't have any democrats in public office, then where would we be?

I reckon you have me convinced, now.

[chad745]

All, I just sent the following email to GVM at grapevinemills@themills.com. They may thumb thier nose at me, but at least I've said something...

Dear Grapevine Mills,

I recently came across signs at your doors disallowing legal concealed weapon permit holders from carrying in your facility as granted by the state of Texas.

I am deeply disappointed in Grapevine Mills' unwillingness to allow responsible citizens to take their safety as their own responsibility. I am also disappointed that Grapevine Mills' believes this signage stops any weapon-carrying criminal intent on causing harm to you and/or your customers.

I understand Texas gives businesses the right to demand that legal, responsible weapon carriers disarm before entering their facilities. However, due to my responsibility to protect myself and my family, I will also exercise my right to take my money to an establishment friendly to responsible citizens such as myself.

Good day.


Grapevine, TX Concerned Resident

[TxBlonde]

Very Nice

[chad745]

All, the email I used just came back undeliverable. So, I called GVM and asked for the email of someone I could talk to concerning policy. They gave me the following:

robert.cesare@themills.com

I sent the above email to him. Any of us that do or will visit GVM, if you want, you can email him to. I'll let the forum know if there is any reply from him.

[tfrazier]

Just this morning I posted an article about them on my blog over at 4fraziers. Getting the word out to all my friends, family, and readers not to shop there until the signs come down.

[chad745]

Just this morning I posted an article about them on my blog over at 4fraziers. Getting the word out to all my friends, family, and readers not to shop there until the signs come down.

Excellent! I wouldn't mind if we all raised a big stink with these people, and hit them where it hurts, right in thier bank books! I read your blog on this, very, very well said.

Everyone, if you can, send them an email stating your positions and intentions!

[Mike1951]

Far be it for me to discourage letter writing. It's good practice.

But the campaign has been going on since Grapevine and Katy Mills posted in Texas and longer in other states.

All of the Mills properties post and they're sending the same asenine reply that they were almost ten years ago. These folks don't listen to reason, couldn't care less about any threat of lost revenue, and they ain't gonna change.

For them to suffer from a loss of business, they would have to lose tenants in their malls because of this. That's never going to happen.

Earlier in this thread, RPBrown mentioned a possible sale of the properties to Simons. Something like this is the only possible hope for the Mills properties.