Luke 22:36 Jesus and a .45?

[LSUTiger]

This is not a discussion of religion, in the sense of mine is better than yours or I am right and you are wrong or you should believe what I believe, but more of a clarfication on the meaning or interpretation of biblical text.

And Luke 22:36 reads:

36 [Jesus] said to [the disciples], "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag; and the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one." (New Revised Standard Version, NRSV)

I have seen many forum members with this tag line and if you do a forum search you'll see it has been discussed a few times, but with out the proper explanation of its meaning in my opinion.

Example:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=408&p=2835&hilit=luke+22%3A36#p2835" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2267&p=22634&hilit ... A36#p22634" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now as a Catholic, I must say that I believe legitimate self defense is justifiable. I am not saying the bible or Christianity does not support self-defense, just that Luke 22:36 is not that support.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c2a5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; see 2236 and references below article.


All I am saying is while Luke 22:36 seems cool to use as an argument for arming ourselves and self-defense, but thats not what I believe it means at all.


At this point we pick up the textual context of Luke 22:36 (bold print). He is eating the Last Supper on the night he was betrayed.

Luke 22:35-38 says:

35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied. (NRSV)

So what does it mean? The swords were somehow needed to fulfill prophecy

"For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’" (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy. Also, Matthew mentions fulfilling prophecy (26:54). If Peter had kept on physically using the sword to prevent Christ’s arrest, prophecy would not have been accomplished smoothly and without hindrance. Jesus says that he could call on twelve legions of angels to protect him, meaning he is destined by God to die; he was not permitted to stop even the mighty Roman Empire from fulfilling its role (Matt. 26:53). That is why Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in its place (Matt. 26:52). And in Luke he says to Peter after the disciple cut off an ear, "No more of this!" (22:51).

Conclusion

The events in the Garden of Gethsemane and the commands of Jesus there teach the Apostles nonaggression, so Luke 22:36 does not permit violence. He said to Peter: "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matt. 26:52). Peter and the others heard those words that clarify the use of swords. Therefore, a lifestyle of the sword must not be part of the disciples’ new walk with the resurrected Christ, as they preached his message of hope.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... _22_36.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although I am not advocating the website quoted (at best I think the two sides will have to agree to disagree), I have googled this topic and this particular reference seemed to make the most sense to me. So don't be put off by it and if you are then that is your right.

And I don't believe "people who live by the sword, die by the sword" is meant to those who arm themselves for self defense but rather those who go out and commit unjust acts against others. What goes around, comes around! Turning the other cheek has its limitations.

Now when I go out and my wife says "becareful", I always say " Don't worry, I got Jesus and a .45! What one won't take care of the other one will."

Just my 2 cents. I am no biblical scholar. Please be gentle.

[fickman]

I've almost written basically this same thing several times, and I'm a Reformed Baptist. I just haven't had the energy. Thanks for the write up. I'll expand more on my thoughts later when I have more time.

38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.

The best commentaries I've seen on this. . . from the theologians I hold in the highest regard, agree that he was not saying, "that's enough swords!" He was instead saying, "Enough sword talk". . . frustrated that they missed his point. He was on a topic saying how his kingdom is spiritual, not physical, and they completely missed his point.

If Jesus WAS saying, "That's enough swords", I believe it was only because he knew a sword would be needed at the garden for the disciple to attack the soldier, Jesus to stop him and heal the soldier. Then he immediately speaks against the action. . .

There is a lot in the Bible to justify self defense, even deadly force, but this verse isn't it.

[RPB]

Watching Roger Williams at Nocked and Loaded gun store now, so didn't read the ewntire posts above, but

it's partly a comparison/contrast scripture in context:
Before, when I was here, it was a time for peace, but now, violent times are ahead (for all Christians and Jews in Israel, due to Rome coming)...

Luke 22:36
should begin in 35 ... Jesus was here ... "Hey guys, remember when I said ..."
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.


Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one

Context...
Timing... this was JUST before Jesus was going to leave them on their own and be crucified and ascend
Similar to a Father's advice as his sons leave the nest ... take care of yourselves ...
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-Chapter-22/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The BrideGroom was about to leave ... the birds about to be kicked out of the nest to fend for themselves.
Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

------------

Historical cycles occur, there's a time to beat swords into ploughshares, and a time to arm up, stated in Ecclesiastes 3:8 (a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.), and illustrated in both scripture and history.


The flood=
When you see the armies surrounding you, then let them which live in Judea, head for the hills.
Luke 21:20
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Matt 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Zechariah 14:5
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
================\

The events in the Garden of Gethsemane and the commands of Jesus there teach the Apostles nonaggression, only because Jesus had to be taken captive and give His life.

Jesus' life period on Earth mirrors Israel's history of being taken; the sacrifice ZHe made contained all elements for an acceptable one, red stuff, wood, water, hyssop etc, just as the 2 birds in Lev 14 mirrored Barabbas being set free, and the scape goat living sacrifice being set free representing those freed from sin and the remnant or those "left behind" each time Israel was taken captive ...those left behind inherited the kingdom' they, being the poor, because Babylon/Assyria took the wealthy and health captive, but left the poor weak and worthjless behind so they were saved from camptivity and inherited the kingdom, hence the poor inherit the earth.


not trying to get deep, but just illustrating that there are cycles in His life reflecting time periods of Israel's history and future, There's a time for peace, and a time for war ... to jump up like a pop goes the weasel prior to your execution when placed on the floor.

He didn't want His disciples destroyed nor fighting to keep Him from giving His life as a substitutionary sacrifice at that time while the bridegroom was present.

38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.

Yup, I carry TWO Glock 26s, it is enough.


Two is 1 and 1 is none.

Summary: The night in the Garden prior to Jesus' arrest, was not the TIME to fight.
But it was the last time He'd have to tell the Apostles to arm up before the Bridegroom left.

[e-bil]

My pastor loves to preach on the history and culture of the time of Jesus to put what he said into a proper frame of reference. I will pass along some of his comments that he's made on these over the years.

This is not a discussion of religion, in the sense of mine is better than yours or I am right and you are wrong or you should believe what I believe, but more of a clarfication on the meaning or interpretation of biblical text.

And Luke 22:36 reads:

36 [Jesus] said to [the disciples], "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag; and the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one." (New Revised Standard Version, NRSV)

I have seen many forum members with this tag line and if you do a forum search you'll see it has been discussed a few times, but with out the proper explanation of its meaning in my opinion.

Example:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=408&p=2835&hilit=luke+22%3A36#p2835" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2267&p=22634&hilit ... A36#p22634" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now as a Catholic, I must say that I believe legitimate self defense is justifiable. I am not saying the bible or Christianity does not support self-defense, just that Luke 22:36 is not that support.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c2a5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; see 2236 and references below article.


All I am saying is while Luke 22:36 seems cool to use as an argument for arming ourselves and self-defense, but thats not what I believe it means at all.


At this point we pick up the textual context of Luke 22:36 (bold print). He is eating the Last Supper on the night he was betrayed.

Luke 22:35-38 says:

35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied. (NRSV)

So what does it mean? The swords were somehow needed to fulfill prophecy

Jesus was here to start a rebellion against the evil holding grip on the world, not Rome. The Jews of the time wanted a military ruler like David who would come in and clean house and restore Israel. Two swords would be useless against the Roman occupation so why would he tell them to have them? Two swords does give a group of people protection against bandits and wild animals.

Conclusion

The events in the Garden of Gethsemane and the commands of Jesus there teach the Apostles nonaggression, so Luke 22:36 does not permit violence. He said to Peter: "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matt. 26:52). Peter and the others heard those words that clarify the use of swords. Therefore, a lifestyle of the sword must not be part of the disciples’ new walk with the resurrected Christ, as they preached his message of hope.

Jesus was to be the sacrifice. Peter drawing steel on the Romans was going to be against what Jesus knew he was to do. This was more a "Now is not the time and do not resort to violence as a first response" thing.

And I don't believe "people who live by the sword, die by the sword" is meant to those who arm themselves for self defense but rather those who go out and commit unjust acts against others. What goes around, comes around! Turning the other cheek has its limitations.

Turn the other cheek came from the practice of a Roman slapping a non-Roman was done backhanded. Turning the other cheek means that if you want to slap them again, you have to do it as an equal and not a "lesser" person.

[Abraham]

"This is not a discussion of religion,"

No?

[jmra]

"This is not a discussion of religion,"

No?

Sounds like a historical discussion to me.

[gigag04]

I've seen worse usage of the scriptures in internet forums that Lk 22:36 et al justifying carrying...I started to care and discuss, but then realized it was the internet...


Bonjour...

[carrydave]

heres the KJV i try to stray away from any of the new versions they have disappointed me more than thrice.

33And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

and heres the greek par output. you can use google translate to double check stuff: people say "is the bible fallible? " i say "which bible"

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
eipen oun autoiV alla nun o ecwn balantion aratw omoiwV kai phran kai o mh ecwn pwlhsatw to imation autou kai agorasatw macairan

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
eipen oun autoiV alla nun o ecwn balantion aratw omoiwV kai phran kai o mh ecwn pwlhsatw to imation autou kai agorasatw macairan


Byzantine Majority
eipen oun autoiV alla nun o ecwn balantion aratw omoiwV kai phran kai o mh ecwn pwlhsei to imation autou kai agorasei macairan


Alexandrian
eipen de autoiV alla nun o ecwn ballantion aratw omoiwV kai phran kai o mh ecwn pwlhsatw to imation autou kai agorasatw macairan


Hort and Westcott
eipen de autoiV alla nun o ecwn ballantion aratw omoiwV kai phran kai o mh ecwn pwlhsatw to imation autou kai agorasatw macairan


Latin Vulgate
22:36 dixit ergo eis sed nunc qui habet sacculum tollat similiter et peram et qui non habet vendat tunicam suam et emat gladium


King James Version
22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


American Standard Version
22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.


Bible in Basic English
22:36 And he said to them, But now, he who has a money-bag, or a bag for food, let him take it: and he who has not, let him give his coat for money and get a sword.


Darby's English Translation
22:36 He said therefore to them, But now he that has a purse let him take it, in like manner also a scrip, and he that has none let him sell his garment and buy a sword;


Douay Rheims
22:36 But they said: Nothing. Then said he unto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a scrip; and he that hath not, let him sell his coat, and buy a sword.


Noah Webster Bible
22:36 Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Weymouth New Testament
22:36 'But now,' said He, 'let the one who has a purse take it, and he who has a bag must do the same. And let him who has no sword sell his outer garment and buy one.


World English Bible
22:36 Then he said to them, 'But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.


Young's Literal Translation
22:36 Then said he to them, 'But, now, he who is having a bag, let him take it up, and in like manner also a scrip; and he who is not having, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword,





37

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
legw gar umin oti eti touto to gegrammenon dei telesqhnai en emoi to kai meta anomwn elogisqh kai gar ta peri emou teloV ecei

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
legw gar umin oti eti touto to gegrammenon dei telesqhnai en emoi to kai meta anomwn elogisqh kai gar ta peri emou teloV ecei


Byzantine Majority
legw gar umin oti eti touto to gegrammenon dei telesqhnai en emoi to kai meta anomwn elogisqh kai gar ta peri emou teloV ecei


Alexandrian
legw gar umin oti touto to gegrammenon dei telesqhnai en emoi to kai meta anomwn elogisqh kai gar to peri emou teloV ecei


Hort and Westcott
legw gar umin oti touto to gegrammenon dei telesqhnai en emoi to kai meta anomwn elogisqh kai gar to peri emou teloV ecei


Latin Vulgate
22:37 dico enim vobis quoniam adhuc hoc quod scriptum est oportet impleri in me et quod cum iniustis deputatus est etenim ea quae sunt de me finem habent


King James Version
22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.


American Standard Version
22:37 For I say unto you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in me, And he was reckoned with transgressors: for that which concerneth me hath fulfilment.


Bible in Basic English
22:37 For I say to you that these words will be put into effect in me, And he was numbered among the evil-doers: for what has been said in the Writings about me has an end.


Darby's English Translation
22:37 for I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned with the lawless: for also the things concerning me have an end.


Douay Rheims
22:37 For I say to you, that this that is written must yet be fulfilled in me: And with the wicked was he reckoned. For the things concerning me have an end.


Noah Webster Bible
22:37 For I say to you, that this which is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.


Weymouth New Testament
22:37 For I tell you that those words of Scripture must yet find their fulfilment in me: 'And He was reckoned among the lawless'; for indeed that saying about me has its accomplishment.'


World English Bible
22:37 For I tell you that this which is written must still be fulfilled in me: 'He was counted with the lawless.' For that which concerns me has an end.'


Young's Literal Translation
22:37 for I say to you, that yet this that hath been written it behoveth to be fulfilled in me: And with lawless ones he was reckoned, for also the things concerning me have an end.'





38

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
oi de eipon kurie idou macairai wde duo o de eipen autoiV ikanon estin

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
oi de eipon kurie idou macairai wde duo o de eipen autoiV ikanon estin


Byzantine Majority
oi de eipon kurie idou macairai wde duo o de eipen autoiV ikanon estin


Alexandrian
oi de eipan kurie idou macairai wde duo o de eipen autoiV ikanon estin


Hort and Westcott
oi de eipan kurie idou macairai wde duo o de eipen autoiV ikanon estin


Latin Vulgate
22:38 at illi dixerunt Domine ecce gladii duo hic at ille dixit eis satis est


King James Version
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


American Standard Version
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


Bible in Basic English
22:38 And they said, Lord, here are two swords. And he said, It is enough.


Darby's English Translation
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold here are two swords. And he said to them, It is enough.


Douay Rheims
22:38 But they said: Lord, behold here are two swords. And he said to them, It is enough.


Noah Webster Bible
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said to them, It is enough.


Weymouth New Testament
22:38 'Master, here are two swords,' they exclaimed. 'That is enough,' He replied.


World English Bible
22:38 They said, 'Lord, behold, here are two swords.' He said to them, 'That is enough.'


Young's Literal Translation
22:38 And they said, 'Sir, lo, here are two swords;' and he said to them, 'It is sufficient.'

[carrydave]

i think this translation sorta works:

Ya'll boys that havnt already gave up your wallets, and 5.11 rush packs, go and sell thy ghillie suit and purchase a saturday night special.

[carrydave]

duplicate post(sorry)



the parallels between the way the apostles thought, the way jesus felt, and the way its misinterpreted today are truly ironic.

[TLE2]

a) His kingdom is not of this world
b) We live in it...the world but we are told to be "not of this world".
c) He did tell his disciples to be "street smart", but basically to run away. He also said to turn the other cheek.
d I'm pretty sure He wouldn't have told them to carry a 45 but Peter did carry a sword.

Biblical justification of using force against another is, IMHO, chasing a justification.

I carry, but not because the "Bible tells me so". I would wrestle with the consequences of taking a life if necessary, but then I think that's just being human.

[Mach1]

I think most of us are new testament when it comes to dealing with good people; but we quickly revert to old testament when set upon by bad guys.

[fickman]

I think most of us are new testament when it comes to dealing with good people; but we quickly revert to old testament when set upon by bad guys.

My carpel tunnel can't handle engaging in this conversation, albeit interesting. This sounds like a great discussion to have over an IPA or a cappuccino.

[bdickens]

Is this the same Jesus who left the Temple in disgust, went and braided a whip, and then came back and commenced to beating the tar out of some people?

The same Jesus who advised his followers to engage in acts of defiance against the authorities?