What should you do in different scenarios...

[Jumping Frog]

Can we please give a more... simple response, rather than "legal" speak?

Example:

"Yes, if someone draws a knife on you and you are in fear for your life, you can draw (but not discharge) your firearm in an attempt to make the threat run/leave without using deadly force."

OR

"No, if someone has a knife you cannot draw unless you're certain you're going to discharge to end the threat".


I'm sure I'll get a few "You were taught this in your class, you should remember this at all times" responses, but it's 2:10 in the morning and I'm tired, leave me alone! :P

If someone pulls a knife on you, shoot them.

Is that simple enough?

[Jumping Frog]

The statute says that production of a weapon is not deadly force, and you may do that when you may use force (not just deadly force). How can the statute expect you to display your weapon in response to "force" if you will then be charged with failure to conceal? It basically says that display of the weapon when force is justified is not deadly force.

You don't actually expect laws to make common sense, do you?

Hey, it is what it is. You can be charged with intentional failure to conceal if you display a handgun while under authority of your CHL. If you read further in that statute, there is an exception stating it is a defense to that crime if you displayed it when you are justified to use deadly force.

Using your handgun as ordinary force, as you are describing creating an apprehension of force, is not justified.

This is not the first time this topic has been discussed in these forums. The above has been stated by Mr. Cotton himself, who I'd consider to be a pretty reputable source.

[cw3van]

The statute says that production of a weapon is not deadly force, and you may do that when you may use force (not just deadly force). How can the statute expect you to display your weapon in response to "force" if you will then be charged with failure to conceal? It basically says that display of the weapon when force is justified is not deadly force.

You don't actually expect laws to make common sense, do you?

Hey, it is what it is. You can be charged with intentional failure to conceal if you display a handgun while under authority of your CHL. If you read further in that statute, there is an exception stating it is a defense to that crime if you displayed it when you are justified to use deadly force.

Using your handgun as ordinary force, as you are describing creating an apprehension of force, is not justified.

This is not the first time this topic has been discussed in these forums. The above has been stated by Mr. Cotton himself, who I'd consider to be a pretty reputable source.

Put about as well as it can be. As CHL Instructors we show a student the law if you need more as has been said here visit your attorney.

[TexasCajun]

My scenario was: A minor car accident, I rearend someone with my car, the guy is irate, he gets out of his car, he is screaming obscenities and banging on my window, I'm scared, I call the police, but he doesn't care and keeps screaming and banging. What would you do? Would I be within my rights to pull my weapon, but not point it at him and tell him to back off or should I just drive away? What if he actually breaks my window by banging on it?

Scenario #2: I'm pumping gas and I'm approached by someone with a knife demanding I give him money and I'm carrying. What would you do? Are you within your rights to pull your weapon?

Thanks for your help
Beth

Here's my response in the given situations as written.
#1 Stop the threat as follows: I call 911, don't hang up & drive to the nearest station/sub-station per the operator's instructions. FYI, if you tell the operator that you hold a CHL and are armed, the response time is usually reduced. This plan is subject to change depending on what the irate driver does.

#2 Stop the threat as follows: Draw AND fire my handgun. Someone armed with a knife and demanding money is a deadly-force threat. I have no duty to retreat, and I have a strong aversions to unauthorized persons putting holes in me.

My ultimate goal every single day is to make it back home to my family unharmed. I got my CHL, carry daily where legally allowed to, and try to maintain a level of proficiency in several skill areas in order to meet that daily goal.

[G26ster]

The statute says that production of a weapon is not deadly force, and you may do that when you may use force (not just deadly force). How can the statute expect you to display your weapon in response to "force" if you will then be charged with failure to conceal? It basically says that display of the weapon when force is justified is not deadly force.

You don't actually expect laws to make common sense, do you?

Hey, it is what it is. You can be charged with intentional failure to conceal if you display a handgun while under authority of your CHL. If you read further in that statute, there is an exception stating it is a defense to that crime if you displayed it when you are justified to use deadly force.

Using your handgun as ordinary force, as you are describing creating an apprehension of force, is not justified.

This is not the first time this topic has been discussed in these forums. The above has been stated by Mr. Cotton himself, who I'd consider to be a pretty reputable source.

Put about as well as it can be. As CHL Instructors we show a student the law if you need more as has been said here visit your attorney.

That's why I said, "What you are asking for is a direct yes or no answer from non-attorneys in relation to situations for which there may be no case law in Texas. The best any lay person can do, and should do, is cite the statute, explain what they believe it means (opinion), and have you decide for yourself how you will act. However, we have some attorneys on the Forum who may give you a yes or no answer, but they're obviously all asleep right now."

Using your handgun as ordinary force, as you are describing creating an apprehension of force, is not justified.

[/quote]

That seems to contradict the law (PC9.04) as written. Can you point me to a thread where Charles said that? BTW, my comments were not addressing the scenarios the OP posted, but only addressing PC9.04 based on JALLEN's post.

Edit to add: OK, PC 46.035(h) seems to contradict PC 9.04, as it requires the threat to be deadly force, so I'll withdraw

[bdickens]

You are sitting at the controls of a 3000 pound weapon.

[tornado]

I thought the rule was never to display your weapon unless you were going to shoot (someone).

"No, if someone has a knife you cannot draw unless you're certain you're going to discharge to end the threat".

There is no law, rule or CHL Code of Honor* along the lines of "if the sword is drawn blood must be spilled."

If you draw your gun, you need to be be justified in using deadly force, whether you use it that time or not.

And welcome, Bethstang! Discussing scenarios is good practice.



*Unless you're wearing your CHL badge, tiara, sash and cape. Then the rules change. Search the forum for details.

[TexasCajun]

I used the time between mailing my packet & receiving my plastic to do just what the OP has done - work out different scenarios in my mind & determine ahead of time what I will & won't do under varrying circumstances. And now that I have my plastic & carry every day, I continue the mental excercise. As I go about my business, I watch what people do & how they react to things. I also try to predict what someone will do next. It's interesting how many patterns there are out there.

With regard to the 'rules'. There are no official, published rules outside of the statutes that we must obey. So your conscience has to be your guide. It's up to you to determine how far a situation will get before you've crossed a line. My reaction to someone approaching me with a knife & demanding money won't be the same as another person's because we each individually have to live with the consequences of our own actions. In my response, I've reasoned that the BG has determined that my life is worth the total sum of my possessions. Even though I disagree with the BG, he/she nonetheless has set the price. So I can either submit & hope the BG is not a sociopath who will harm me regardless of how much I net him/her. Or I can run away and hope that I'm fast enough & have enough stamina to outrun the BG. Or I can meet the threat with superior force. There may be other options out there, but these are the three that I believe are simplest & easiest for me to quickly process in the face of a potential threat. Some may be ok with betting on the mercy of the BG & would be willing to give all that they have in order to end the confrontation. Some may have the athletic attributes necessary for running away. And yet others may be ok with only a show of force (drawing a gun & shouting a warning). In any heavily charged situation, training & instinct WILL take over, so it's not the time to try to expand your horizons & try to get out of your comfort zone. Knowing ahead of time what you can and cannot do will keep that split-second hesitation from turning the situation from bad to worse.

[dac1842]

Here is the bottom line and the absolute truth. Until you are involved in a situation you don't know how you will react. Having said that, practicing reacting to different scenarios will help, as studies show you will react to the real thing better if you have practiced a response.

I am a former LEO, SWAT sniper, and EMT. I have a real good idea how I will react as I have 20+ years of experience in doing so. The reaction to emergency situations has been studied for years. Now that we have video cameras everywhere, the reaction of people is documented and validates the numerous studies that have been done in the past.

Studies show that only about 10% of the people react properly to an emergency. The other 90% freeze, run or panic.
My wife and I have certain things we have practiced numerous times, such as, response to an intruder in our home, Response to a car jacking where we bail out of opposite doors where the person exiting opposite the attacker lays down cover fire for the other. ( including shooting under the car and taking out an attackers ankles!). There is no way you can practice every scenario, but cover the basics as most of the basic response principles transfer to most scenarios.

Having the CHL does not guarantee you will respond properly. It just means however you respond it will be an armed response, proper or improper is how your prepare.