What should you do in different scenarios...

[Bethstang]

My husband and I just sent in our paperwork to obtain our CHL license and are now waiting, so we were discussing scenarios.
My question is what should, would or could you do within your rights in these situations:

My scenario was: A minor car accident, I rearend someone with my car, the guy is irate, he gets out of his car, he is screaming obscenities and banging on my window, I'm scared, I call the police, but he doesn't care and keeps screaming and banging. What would you do? Would I be within my rights to pull my weapon, but not point it at him and tell him to back off or should I just drive away? What if he actually breaks my window by banging on it?

Scenario #2: I'm pumping gas and I'm approached by someone with a knife demanding I give him money and I'm carrying. What would you do? Are you within your rights to pull your weapon?

Thanks for your help
Beth

[sunny beach]

They're supposed to cover Chapter 9 in class but here's a link in case they didn't. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... m/PE.9.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gthaustex]

As with any scenario, it depends on the circumstances. If you can articulate that based on the totality of the circumstances you were in fear for your life and a reasonable person would agree, then your actions will be easier to explain. The first scenario is in a gray area for me. Someone hitting the window hard enough to break it would cause fear for most. The display of a weapon is a threat of deadly force, which is not the same as the use of deadly force. It might seem like a good idea to try and drive away, but someone that irate will most likely follow you and now you have an even more dangerous scenario with bumper cars and others involved as well.

There was a situation in Houston not long ago where something similar happened and the woman in the car shot the man through her window while he was still outside her vehicle. No broken window by the man who the woman claimed aggressively approached her car. The case was going to a grand jury the last I heard...

Your second scenario is very cut and dried for me. Someone brought a knife to a gunfight. The display of a knife as an offensive tool is more than enough reason to aggressively defend myself if I so choose. It would also be much easier to explain to the police, attorneys and grand jury as to why there was a need to shoot if one chose to do so.

[flechero]

In your #1 you can drive away and call 911 to report what's happening.

In #2 there is a possible alternative, depending on details not provided but I would likely be drawing at the point that I saw an aggressor coming at me with a knife drawn.

YMMV

[JALLEN]

I thought the rule was never to display your weapon unless you were going to shoot (someone). None of this waving a gun around hollering "Stick 'em up or I'll shoot!" nonsense, like on TV.

[cheezit]

after living thre the rondy king ordeal and see plenty of it first hand, see all the mistakes... banging on my window, yelling and screaming is ill advised, ill be leaving the area and making a phone call, weather or not you are in the way of me doing so.

so far as #2 goes way to open for options. can you get away with out risk? are there other people around... etc.
that said as stated, never under estamate a person with a knife. they are much more deadly then a gun in close combat

[Jumping Frog]

The first scenario is in a gray area for me. Someone hitting the window hard enough to break it would cause fear for most. The display of a weapon is a threat of deadly force, which is not the same as the use of deadly force.

Do not overlook that displaying a handgun is intentional failure to conceal. We are only justified to display the handgun when we are justified to use deadly force.

To the OP, if he tries to open the door or breaks the window, then the "with force" attempted entry of your vehicle. At that moment, then someone's use of deadly force would be "presumed reasonable".

For scenario 2, that is aggravated robbery. Deadly force is justified.

The exact language that supports the use of deadly force is included in the link provided in the previous post.

[G26ster]

I thought the rule was never to display your weapon unless you were going to shoot (someone). None of this waving a gun around hollering "Stick 'em up or I'll shoot!" nonsense, like on TV.

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

[gthaustex]

I thought the rule was never to display your weapon unless you were going to shoot (someone). None of this waving a gun around hollering "Stick 'em up or I'll shoot!" nonsense, like on TV.

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Didn't have the exact text in front of me when I wrote the above, but G26ster found what I was talking about in section 9.04. I think the confusion lies in the idea that you should not pull your weapon unless you are justified in using it. I agree. That said, it does not mean that you have to shoot. Whether you are justified in drawing goes back to the feeling
threatened part above (meaning in fear for your life) and being able to clearly explain why you chose to take that action.


I had the thought about driving away if possible. Then the thought crossed my mind that the perp in question would try to
run me off the road. The police have already been called in this scenario and I assume they are already on the way. If we start moving they are trying to find a moving target. Tough call to decide what to do. Ultimately you will have to justify whatever action you take. Was it reasonable, given the circumstances? It would be prudent in any of these cases to have the 911 dispatcher on the phone during or immediately after the incident. You want to be the first to call in the situation.

[Jumping Frog]

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

Creating the apprehension or threat of deadly force is fine if you are carrying on your own property, or using a deadly weapon other than a handgun.

But if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL, be advised that threatening deadly force when deadly force is not justified can still get you charged with intentional failure to conceal.

[JALLEN]

I thought the rule was never to display your weapon unless you were going to shoot (someone). None of this waving a gun around hollering "Stick 'em up or I'll shoot!" nonsense, like on TV.

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Didn't have the exact text in front of me when I wrote the above, but G26ster found what I was talking about in section 9.04. I think the confusion lies in the idea that you should not pull your weapon unless you are justified in using it. I agree. That said, it does not mean that you have to shoot. Whether you are justified in drawing goes back to the feeling
threatened part above (meaning in fear for your life) and being able to clearly explain why you chose to take that action

Isn't it that if you are really in fear of imminent bodily harm, protecting against deadly force etc as justifies producing your weapon, that situation is likely so serious that it almost demands that you use it?

I suppose ( and that is all I can do since I have yet to be in the situation in real life!) that when you decide you have to draw, are justified in shooting someone right then and there, that in that hopefully brief interval between decision and the "bang!" something could change your mind. Not usually, I would think, or maybe you are overreacting.

I'm kind of feeling my way along here, so I'm happy to hear all the views.

[G26ster]

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

Creating the apprehension or threat of deadly force is fine if you are carrying on your own property, or using a deadly weapon other than a handgun.

But if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL, be advised that threatening deadly force when deadly force is not justified can still get you charged with intentional failure to conceal.

The statute says that production of a weapon is not deadly force, and you may do that when you may use force (not just deadly force). How can the statute expect you to display your weapon in response to "force" if you will then be charged with failure to conceal? It basically says that display of the weapon when force is justified is not deadly force.

[un0fficial]

Can we please give a more... simple response, rather than "legal" speak?

Example:

"Yes, if someone draws a knife on you and you are in fear for your life, you can draw (but not discharge) your firearm in an attempt to make the threat run/leave without using deadly force."

OR

"No, if someone has a knife you cannot draw unless you're certain you're going to discharge to end the threat".


I'm sure I'll get a few "You were taught this in your class, you should remember this at all times" responses, but it's 2:10 in the morning and I'm tired, leave me alone! :P

[G26ster]

Can we please give a more... simple response, rather than "legal" speak?

Example:

"Yes, if someone draws a knife on you and you are in fear for your life, you can draw (but not discharge) your firearm in an attempt to make the threat run/leave without using deadly force."

OR

"No, if someone has a knife you cannot draw unless you're certain you're going to discharge to end the threat".


I'm sure I'll get a few "You were taught this in your class, you should remember this at all times" responses, but it's 2:10 in the morning and I'm tired, leave me alone! :P

Sorry you're tired. What you are asking for is a direct yes or no answer from non-attorneys in relation to situations for which there may be no case law in Texas. The best any lay person can do, and should do, is cite the statute, explain what they believe it means (opinion), and have you decide for yourself how you will act. However, we have some attorneys on the Forum who may give you a yes or no answer, but they're obviously all asleep right now.

[Ericstac]

If someone is coming at me or my loved ones with a knife I would size up the situation and either shoot the bad guy or kill him with my knife, depending on the entire scene. Either way, I would do my best to stop the threat.


An irate driver isn't a threat, especially when you are in your car. Just leave and call 911.