Response From DPS Regarding Policies When Encountering CHLer

[AEA]

BINGO! AND a Cigar!

[E.Marquez]

I have read all 5 pages but have not seen any stats on how many guns from CHL's have been confiscated after running a NCIC check. I am guessing this info should be available and I am wondering why it was not supplied with the original FOIA?

QUESTION?
How does one request that specific piece of data in a FOIA?

Im willing to go through the effort, incur the costs...but don't know how.

[Abraham]

So.........color me confused. I've read the thread and my head hurts.

Is DPS stating that if they make a traffic stop on a CHLer, they WILL without question, disarm him and check his handgun SN to make certain it's not stolen, as a matter of routine?

Yes?

No?

Maybe?

[nightmare]

I think disarming is left to the mood of the trooper but if they disarm you policy says they will run the serial number.

[steveincowtown]

I have read all 5 pages but have not seen any stats on how many guns from CHL's have been confiscated after running a NCIC check. I am guessing this info should be available and I am wondering why it was not supplied with the original FOIA?

QUESTION?
How does one request that specific piece of data in a FOIA?

Im willing to go through the effort, incur the costs...but don't know how.

Every agency, department, etc. has their own process for FOIA request.

Texas DPS has an area of their webpage:

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/publicInformation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IANAL, but here is what I have encountered in the past.

If you are requesting information that is specifically related to you (ie the dashcam video of you being pulled over) you will usually have to pay a nominal fee.

If you are requesting information that is "for the public good" you can get it what you need at no charge.

Being able to articulate why the information needed is for the public good is usually key to getting the information for free and in a timely manner.

[E.Marquez]

Being able to articulate why the information needed is for the public good is usually key to getting the information for free and in a timely manner.

Thanks for the tips..
So your saying I should use some justification other then " Data to be used to support this checking of CHL's weapon serial numbers to be unconstitutional, and possible a criminal act.

[mikedude]

I think disarming is left to the mood of the trooper but if they disarm you policy says they will run the serial number.

It is not the "mood", but whether they fear for their safety. A lot of that goes with what the person carrying the gun does on the stop. Remember one doesn't need a chl to carry in the car in TX. Are you cooperative and remain calm, or are you the one that jumps out of the car screaming why are you bad word stopping me? Are you intoxicated; in a DV incident; didn't stop as required and drove on; not complying with the officers requests to keep your hands away from your weapon, time/place of stop., ect? The list goes on and on. These are all "what if's" and unless you are the officer, you do not know how they feel at that particular time. Not all officers grew up around guns and many do not even carry off duty anymore.

"IF" a gun is temporarily taken, I personally do not see the big deal with the NCIC check. They are probably already running your license and warrants anyhow. The new generation and some departments require this for every stop. My suggestion is don't carry a stolen gun

Other states have the specific gun/serial number on your CHL. That could alleviate the problem. Then you can only carry what is on the CHL, and the # is already there. I don't think anybody here wants that. In reality with that system it means the CHL holder qualified with that gun at least once every 5 years. With the TX system one qualifies once every 5 with one gun, then goes off and carries whatever they want w/o qualifying.

[57Coastie]

I think disarming is left to the mood of the trooper but if they disarm you policy says they will run the serial number.

It is not the "mood", but whether they fear for their safety. A lot of that goes with what the person carrying the gun does on the stop. Remember one doesn't need a chl to carry in the car in TX. Are you cooperative and remain calm, or are you the one that jumps out of the car screaming why are you bad word stopping me? Are you intoxicated; in a DV incident; didn't stop as required and drove on; not complying with the officers requests to keep your hands away from your weapon, time/place of stop., ect? The list goes on and on. These are all "what if's" and unless you are the officer, you do not know how they feel at that particular time. Not all officers grew up around guns and many do not even carry off duty anymore.

"IF" a gun is temporarily taken, I personally do not see the big deal with the NCIC check. They are probably already running your license and warrants anyhow. The new generation and some departments require this for every stop. My suggestion is don't carry a stolen gun

Other states have the specific gun/serial number on your CHL. That could alleviate the problem. Then you can only carry what is on the CHL, and the # is already there. I don't think anybody here wants that. In reality with that system it means the CHL holder qualified with that gun at least once every 5 years. With the TX system one qualifies once every 5 with one gun, then goes off and carries whatever they want w/o qualifying.

Jim

[E.Marquez]

I think disarming is left to the mood of the trooper but if they disarm you policy says they will run the serial number.

It is not the "mood", but whether they fear for their safety./quote]
And then in lays the discussion at hand..

The "Feeling" of some CHL's is that officers are not doing this out of safety or fear as you state,, but out of policy, personal or department.. Ie, because they can... not because of an articulable position that justifies seizure IAW the law as written.

[DEB]

I think disarming is left to the mood of the trooper but if they disarm you policy says they will run the serial number.

It is not the "mood", but whether they fear for their safety./quote]
And then in lays the discussion at hand..

The "Feeling" of some CHL's is that officers are not doing this out of safety or fear as you state,, but out of policy, personal or department.. Ie, because they can... not because of an articulable position that justifies seizure IAW the law as written.

This. Also, if the officer is in fear of their safety, how do they effect the disarming of the person, while remaining totally in control of the situation? Does the officer point his/her weapon at you, put you on your knees, handcuff you and then disarm you? Only way I can see to keep the officer less fearful of the person and their possible future actions. But, I have never heard of that method being used in any discussion, as I have never been disarmed during a traffic stop. Officer is scared, but asks you for your weapon to be handed to him/her? Officer is scared, but reaches over you to remove the weapon from you? Seems kind of dangerous to me. How do these scared officers separate you from your weapon? I dunno...I was deployed on several occasions and when we conducted searches, it was always with someone who was pointing a weapon at the individual we were searching and I was still kinda fearful of their possible actions. Not even being sarcastic towards L.E. Officers, I know they have a difficult and very dangerous job. It just seems, at least to me, that it is either an agenda of dislike towards individuals who carry, by some officers or as been articulated by the good CSM, a Departmental policy.

[Bob in Big D]

I think it goes like this:
You hand the officer DL &CHL
He asks "are you armed"?
You say "yes"
LEO says" where is it?"
You say " on my hip"
LEO says " step out of the car please"
You comply
LEO says "both hands on the car"
You comply and the LEO disarms you.......seems like the safest way to me for all concerned.

My carry gun was bought new from a local gun store so I am not concerned if it will come up stolen, however, I do have several that I bought from private parties where I may be the 3 rd or 4th owner. I got the name and address of the prvious owner but still the possibility could exist that one of of them might be stolen. Could I still be charged with receiving stolen property if the guns I bought used were found to be stolen?

[posse]

I think it goes like this:
You hand the officer DL &CHL
He asks "are you armed"?
You say "yes"
LEO says" where is it?"
You say " on my hip"
LEO says " step out of the car please"
You comply
LEO says "both hands on the car"
You comply and the LEO disarms you.......seems like the safest way to me for all concerned.

The safest way is to leave it in the holster. Less risk of accidents.

The fact he TRUSTS the CHL only has that one gun is pretty strong evidence he doesn't think the CHL is a threat to his safety. That tells me what I need to know about why he disarmed the CHL.

[Bob in Big D]

I think it goes like this:
You hand the officer DL &CHL
He asks "are you armed"?
You say "yes"
LEO says" where is it?"
You say " on my hip"
LEO says " step out of the car please"
You comply
LEO says "both hands on the car"
You comply and the LEO disarms you.......seems like the safest way to me for all concerned.

The safest way is to leave it in the holster. Less risk of accidents.

The fact he TRUSTS the CHL only has that one gun is pretty strong evidence he doesn't think the CHL is a threat to his safety. That tells me what I need to know about why he disarmed the CHL.

If the LEO is on the ball he would probably ask if you have any other weapons on you or maybe do a pat down. I don't recall anyone saying the LEO does or does not trust the CHL. What I posted was maybe oversimplified. I am not a LEO. I do agree that the "safest way is to leave it in the holster, but from the policy statements that decision is up to each LEO.

[posse]

I do agree that the "safest way is to leave it in the holster, but from the policy statements that decision is up to each LEO.

I know what I think if he chooses to do something less safe than leave it in the holster. Other people have to make their own decision what they think of him doing something less safe and trying to claim it's for safety reasons.

[Bob in Big D]

I think that is the point of this thread. Understanding what the policy is, and how we as CHL's can help influence that policy. We could be getting a bum rap or...... DPS has confiscated a large amount of stolen guns. The point is we don't know and until we do it is what it is. So we adhere to the orders of the LEO or suffer the consequences.