Concealed Carry in Texas, pre-1968

[UpTheIrons]

Maybe my Google- and search-fu is failing, but I can't get a search string together to give me an answer.

Was there any sort of carry in Texas pre-1968? I don't think there was - the back of my brain is tickling at the thought that there was no carry allowed once the state constitution stated that carry would be regulated by the lege, but I'm striking out.

Of course, this is one of my cursed combined OCD-and-adult-ADD "squirrel!" moments.

I'm reading Stephen King's 11/22/63, about a guy who goes back in time to try to stop the Kennedy assassination, and trying to figure out what else King has screwed up about Texas. Dallas isn't "central Texas", nobody was saying "Don't Mess With Texas" in 1961, you can't smell the Permian Basin oil fields from Dallas when the wind blows from the west (or could you back then?)...

Now, the protagonist just bought a .38 Colt revolver (for $12!!) and is told by the pawnshop owner that "carry is legal in Texas, no permit needed if you don't have a felony record."

I'm sure he's conflating gun laws here, but I've got to know chapter and verse to be sure. I get the no permit part, but the felony record part seems weird for the time period; also, the idea of legal carry, even in Texas back then seems a bit off.

Help? Anyone?

[puma guy]

I'm sure someone with more legal brainpower than me will jump in here, but here is what I know/remember. I was selling guns in the 1960's/70's and I tried to learn the laws to be able to give informed opinions. There was a law that stated as a bona fide traveler you could have a concealed weapon. Bona fide was defined as crossing two county lines in 24 hours. Long guns were OK to have in a vehicle in plain sight, but I seem to remember they couldn't have a round in the chamber. I may be misremembering the point about loaded chambers. If a hand gun was within reach it was considered to be concealed. In a glove box, under a seat, in a saddle bag, etc. was within reach and so considered to be concealed. There was always some guy who would interrupt to tell me it was OK to carry openly on the seat of your car because then it wasn't "concealed". I never found any law stating that. I guess there would be no law to keep your from traveling on foot, but as for carrying on your person you still had to be a bona fide traveler. At least as far as I knew.

[74novaman]

Not sure about the actual law, but anecdotally, if you were a law abiding citizen and knew the right folk, carry wasn't an issue even before CHL passed.

I know a grandma who's had a .357 revolver in her purse since at least the 70s. Her husband was a Texas Ranger, so maybe she figured she could get away with it.

[9mmfan]

It was against the law, on the books at least. Going back to at least Reconstruction. My late grandfather, tho, always had at least a .25 on or near him. Coulda been the whole, no record, no trouble, no problem. I know my Gramma used to send me to the corner store with a check and a note for candy and her smokes. Post '95, he was asked: "you going to get a permit?" He replied, "haven't needed one yet." He passed some years ago, so I don't think he minds me telling that particular anecdote.

[AEA]

My Dad carried a Smith .38 in the glove box of his car back around the 50's & 60's. As far as I know, he never carried it on his person. But I really don't know, since I was a kid and had bicycles and wagons and other stuff on my mind.

He was a personal friend of the Tarrant County Sheriff at the time. Don't know if that had anything to do with it.

Those were the good old days. No "gun control" as we know it. Walk into a hardware store (or even Sears) and buy whatever you wanted.

[The Annoyed Man]

Those were the good old days. No "gun control" as we know it. Walk into a hardware store (or even Sears) and buy whatever you wanted.

Even in Commiefornia. Before my dad shipped out to Iwo Jima, he walked into a hardware store in Glendale, plunked down $25 for a nickel plated Colt Government model in .45 ACP, and walked out with it. And even though he was active duty military, nobody cared that he carried a pistol onto the base at Camp Pendleton and added it to his kit.

[talltex]

There was NO legally specified way to carry a handgun...period. You could walk into any store that sold firearms and buy one with no problem, but LEGALLY, you were in violation of the law when you carried it home. All the stipulations people talked about that made it legal to carry came from one paragraph in the penal code following the listed offense of "carrying a prohibited weapon". That section stated that "IT IS A GENERALLY RECOGNIZED DEFENSE TO PROSECUTION", if the defendant was in possession of a handgun: while engaging in a lawful sporting activity (driving to a gun range, hunting, etc), traveling (although it didn't define the term, it said that crossing one or more county lines was OFTEN deemed sufficient), by someone whose employment required them to travel to and from their worplace or home with "substantial" amounts of money (such as carrying cash receipts home at night or to the bank for deposits or from one location to another). That was IT...there was no legal carry, and you COULD be arrested at any time, if found carrying a handgun in your vehicle or on your person, anywhere except on your own property, and it was then up to you to convince a judge that you should be granted an exception based on your circumstances. Over time, those exceptions came to be viewed by most people as the LEGAL ways you could carry, but they weren't...they were just USUALLY accepted as a DEFENSE if you were charged. In most cases, particularly in rural areas, it didn't take much convincing and unless you had a criminal background the charges would be dropped. It happened to me once back in the 70's when I got stopped for a traffic violation by a constable that I had a personal history with from high school days. I had been to the local gun club for a skeet and trap tournament and had 5 shotguns, along with a .45 colt auto laying on the seat (in a pouch). He arrested me and took me to the jail, booked me in, and I had to sit there for several hours before one of the deputies was able to get ahold of the County Judge (this was on a Saturday afternoon), who came down an ordered them to release me and instructed the constable to "never pull this kind of stuff again" and to destroy the paperwork.

[jmra]

There was NO legally specified way to carry a handgun...period. You could walk into any store that sold firearms and buy one with no problem, but LEGALLY, you were in violation of the law when you carried it home. All the stipulations people talked about that made it legal to carry came from one paragraph in the penal code following the listed offense of "carrying a prohibited weapon". That section stated that "IT IS A GENERALLY RECOGNIZED DEFENSE TO PROSECUTION", if the defendant was in possession of a handgun: while engaging in a lawful sporting activity (driving to a gun range, hunting, etc), traveling (although it didn't define the term, it said that crossing one or more county lines was OFTEN deemed sufficient), by someone whose employment required them to travel to and from their worplace or home with "substantial" amounts of money (such as carrying cash receipts home at night or to the bank for deposits or from one location to another). That was IT...there was no legal carry, and you COULD be arrested at any time, if found carrying a handgun in your vehicle or on your person, anywhere except on your own property, and it was then up to you to convince a judge that you should be granted an exception based on your circumstances. Over time, those exceptions came to be viewed by most people as the LEGAL ways you could carry, but they weren't...they were just USUALLY accepted as a DEFENSE if you were charged. In most cases, particularly in rural areas, it didn't take much convincing and unless you had a criminal background the charges would be dropped. It happened to me once back in the 70's when I got stopped for a traffic violation by a constable that I had a personal history with from high school days. I had been to the local gun club for a skeet and trap tournament and had 5 shotguns, along with a .45 colt auto laying on the seat (in a pouch). He arrested me and took me to the jail, booked me in, and I had to sit there for several hours before one of the deputies was able to get ahold of the County Judge (this was on a Saturday afternoon), who came down an ordered them to release me and instructed the constable to "never pull this kind of stuff again" and to destroy the paperwork.

So, did you list that arrest on your CHL application?

[Jumping Frog]

I have a friend from the Midwest who has an interesting anecdote about Texas. In the late-60's, he was visiting people somewhere in rural West Texas.

They went to a bar. As he was entering, the doorman asked him, "Do you want a chit?"

"A chit? What's a chit?"

"A chit! You got a gun you wanna check in? You get a chit for it so you get it back when you leave."

He is still convinced Texas is a awesome state. I never wanted to burst his bubble by saying that wasn't legal.

[talltex]

[quote="jmra[/quote]
So, did you list that arrest on your CHL application? [/quote]


nope...there was no record of it...it was "physically expunged" on the spot by the Judge...lol

[posse]

Not sure about the actual law, but anecdotally, if you were a law abiding citizen and knew the right folk, carry wasn't an issue even before CHL passed.

That's what I heard. If someone had the right family connections, they could get away with breaking the law. Minorities and Whites from the wrong side of the tracks were usually the only ones arrested for breaking the UCW law back then. Or if a cop had a personal grudge, like happened to talltex.

[steve817]

The way my lawyer explained it to me when I got popped for a UCW in 1990 was that the "travel exemption" was still on the books from back when either horseback or wagon was the primary means of travel. If you were two counties away, you definitely were going to be gone overnight.

[Kythas]

I read King's "11/22/63" also and noted several inaccuracies.

In one part of the book, he has the protagonist downtown by the School Book Repository and he's mentioning all the business people openly carrying sidearms while wearing business suits and cowboy boots.

I love Stephen King and have read every book he's written. However, he obviously didn't research Texas gun laws in writing this book. After all, it's common knowledge (in the Northeast) that all Texans walk around with sidearms at all times.

[Jim Beaux]

Back in the early 1970's I spoke to several LEO's regarding my wife getting a permit. I explained that she often had to drive through a bad part of town at all hours to pick me up from work. The general consensus was that she couldnt get a permit but, if it was the policeman's wife, she would be carrying regardless. They also said that if the person looks and acts like a responsible citizen & offers a legitimate reason for carrying, then they will not be hassled.

So I went to TG&Y and paid $29.95 for an RG Industries 25 cal. It is a cheapie (aka Roscoe, Saturday Night Special, & Junk) I havent shot the thing in years and just keep it for sentimental reasons. It's still in the box with the warranty & little white price tag on a white string.

[gringo pistolero]

Did the car kill JFK, a la Christine?