Who has authority to ask you to leave?

[RiveraRa]

My church has had a security team for a while now. They are finally getting some good "training" on what to do in emergency situations.
I don't know all of the training they have received but I do know that a police officer in our church has been doing part of that training. He told them that even though you have a CHL, it is illegal to carry in church. We all know that is incorrect (unless properly posted, which my church is not). The first time someone is caught carrying, the security team is to ask them to leave it in the car. If they are caught a 2nd time, the police will be called.

So my question is, who has the authority to ask me to leave it in the car or to leave the property before I am to be considered trespassing?

We have the pastor, assistant pastor, elders, and then the security team.

I don't think (I really have no clue either way), that the pastor knows this is being taught. And if he did, I am assuming he would just believe the LEO in our church that told him it was illegal. The pastor is basically telling the security team, "Use this LEO in our church and get some training. Listen to what he has to say. He should know the laws." Its not like the pastor is say, I don't want any CHL's in here so ask anyone you catch to leave.

What does everyone think?

[Valor]

If you know for certain this is the new security policy, request a meeting with your pastor and present the precise law regarding conceal and church carry. Perhaps he will change the policy for CHL holders. If you are assuming this is the new policy, confirm with the head of the security detail. I would believe anyone designated as an official or given permission by an official has the right to ask one to depart the building. If they insist zero gun policy, perhaps it is time to find a new church home or leave in car.

But how would they know when you are carrying? Will they begin to frisk and using a wand like at some Islamic temples?

[puma guy]

First I'd tell the pastor to get a new trainer. I doubt you'd be succesful in trying to convince the uninformed LEO to learn the law. 30.06 has been around long enough that ignorant LEO's shouldn't be. He is supposed to know the law and if he or the security staff are going to put some one in jail for CHL w/o a 30.06 that could be putting the church at risk for a lawsuit. IMHO Second I would verify whether the security team and/or the LEO is formally authorized to speak for the church not just the pastor. If they don't want CHL's they should post and if they do decide to post I would change churches.

[WildBill]

My church has had a security team for a while now. They are finally getting some good "training" on what to do in emergency situations.
I don't know all of the training they have received but I do know that a police officer in our church has been doing part of that training. He told them that even though you have a CHL, it is illegal to carry in church. We all know that is incorrect (unless properly posted, which my church is not). The first time someone is caught carrying, the security team is to ask them to leave it in the car. If they are caught a 2nd time, the police will be called.

So my question is, who has the authority to ask me to leave it in the car or to leave the property before I am to be considered trespassing?

We have the pastor, assistant pastor, elders, and then the security team.

I don't think (I really have no clue either way), that the pastor knows this is being taught. And if he did, I am assuming he would just believe the LEO in our church that told him it was illegal. The pastor is basically telling the security team, "Use this LEO in our church and get some training. Listen to what he has to say. He should know the laws." Its not like the pastor is say, I don't want any CHL's in here so ask anyone you catch to leave.

What does everyone think?

IMO, since the pastor has appointed the LEO as "head of the security team", he has given his permission for the security team to enforce a no gun policy. If I were you I would talk to the pastor and try to explain that the church we be less secure with a no-gun policy.

[OldCannon]

Leave the church. The pastor has taken unwise council, and endangers his flock. There are other houses where your family will be welcome.

[stealthfightrf17]

To me it sounds like the LEO still thinks you can't carry under a CHL in a church. I would talk with the pastor first and explain this is incorrect. If the pastor is fine with you carraying, I would also get ask for a letter stating this from him. The LEO also need to know that he is wrong, and maybe talking with him and the pastor can easliy clear it up.

[tomtexan]

The pastor has probably given the LEO permission to have a gun inside the church. The LEO wants to be the only one there with a gun. It's probably a control thing with him.

[WildBill]

The pastor has probably given the LEO permission to have a gun inside the church. The LEO wants to be the only one there with a gun. It's probably a control thing with him.

He is the only one professional enough to handle a gun in church.

[sjfcontrol]

The pastor has probably given the LEO permission to have a gun inside the church. The LEO wants to be the only one there with a gun. It's probably a control thing with him.

He is the only one professional enough to handle a gun in church.

Especially if it's a Glock .40!

[RPB]

To me it sounds like the LEO still thinks you can't carry under a CHL in a church.

I would talk with the pastor first and explain this is incorrect. If the pastor is fine with you carraying, I would also get ask for a letter stating this from him.

The LEO also need to know that he is wrong, and maybe talking with him and the pastor can easliy clear it up.

First I'd tell the pastor to get a new trainer. I doubt you'd be succesful in trying to convince the uninformed LEO to learn the law. 30.06 has been around long enough that ignorant LEO's shouldn't be. He is supposed to know the law and if he or the security staff are going to put some one in jail for CHL w/o a 30.06 that could be putting the church at risk for a lawsuit. IMHO Second I would verify whether the security team and/or the LEO is formally authorized to speak for the church not just the pastor. If they don't want CHL's they should post and if they do decide to post I would change churches.

***Show*** the Pastor the law ... highlighted as justification in getting a new trainer


What I'd personally do after getting a letter (written permission) from the Pastor to correct the situation

Here's 3 steps ... (Matt 18)
I'd print the section with the appropriate part HIGHLIGHTED for the officer (and if needed later for the Pastor)


Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.


(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

3 steps ... (Matt 18)
15 “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. (point subsection i) out to him alone and allow him to save face, not be embarrassed by not knowing it) If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.

16* If he does not listen, take one or two others (CHLs/LEOs who know better/Attorneys/ people who can read the current version) along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the (PASTOR who put him in charge) church.* If he refuses to listen even to the (PASTOR) church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. (change churches if the officer/Pastor don't choose correct policy (if they put up a 30.06 sign.)

[Deltaboy]

As a Pastor my self I would want you to get a copy of the law and a letter from a respected lawyer stating the LEO doesn't know his head from a hole in the ground.

I am blessed in my county we have common sense logic driven LEO's.

[emcee rib]

If the church is a House of God then we're obligated to obey the Word of God there. There's nothing in the Bible that says not to carry guns in church. If you believe the police officer is a prophet and speaks the Word of God then his statement is oral notice. If he's not a prophet, then he lacks the apparent authority to act for the owner.

Another possibility is it's not a House of God. Then it's no different than any other business. The owners or management can give notice.

[sjfcontrol]

As a Pastor my self I would want you to get a copy of the law and a letter from a respected lawyer stating the LEO doesn't know his head from a hole in the ground.

I am blessed in my county we have common sense logic driven LEO's.

Copy of the law, OK.
But, hire your own lawyer. It is not up to your flock to teach you what the truth is.

"Common sense logic driven LEO's"? If they're telling you that it is illegal to carry in church, they're "common sense logic driven WRONG LEO's".

[RiveraRa]

The thing is, he never spoke with me directly. My wife is the nursery coordinator and was at the training today. So she is the one who heard it, not me. I have still have not received an oral warning. But according to this LEO, if I ever get "found out" the security team (whoever is serving that Sunday) will give an oral warning.
Again, the only people that even know about this are those few that were in the meeting today (nursery/childcare and security team). I don't even think the pastor is in the loop on this one (although he might be).

I guess I'm just trying to decide if I'm just going to keep carrying (Iv'e been doing it for the past 4 years and no one has ever noticed) or if I should just have a sit down with the pastor or the LEO that stated this incorrect information.

[puma guy]

As a Pastor my self I would want you to get a copy of the law and a letter from a respected lawyer stating the LEO doesn't know his head from a hole in the ground.

I am blessed in my county we have common sense logic driven LEO's.

Since you are on this forum I assume you are a CHL or have some interest in the subject. Here is the law. No lawyer necessary to interpret.

I'm not sure if your common sense comment is in support of this LEO and that LEO's should enforce what they consider common sense or that your county LEO's had the sense to learn the law. The latter I suspect. I haven't been in Johnson City since 1966 when I spent a week and a half in the hospital from a gunshot wound. I did have a short conversation with an officer, but I was pretty out of it so I don't have an opinion on his horse sense
If you dont mind I have a question. As a Pastor do you seek Deacons'/Elders' consent/advice/approval when making arrangements such as a Security Team for the church?

EDIT: I just realized you are in Johnson County. NOT Johnson City

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a
governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer
under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security
officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the
security officer's employment, the security officer violates a
provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or
outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for
use by the public that is located in a county with a population of
more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface
area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is
open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has
security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not
include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry
a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.
(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e)
is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under
Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony
of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
(j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical
reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas
Alcoholic Beverage Commission.