Pitfalls with certain SD tactics?

[matriculated]

... This is a planned heist. I was trapped from behind, trapped from the front, nowhere to go with my car, 5 guys armed with bats coming at me. ...

If you find yourself in such a situation your planning is not the acme of excellence.

It can happen to anybody, Doc.

You seem less interested in a discussion and more interested in trolling responses.

Racial epithets are a no go as a tactic...there...I've answered your question as have others.

I'm not "trolling" anything." I thought it was a thought provoking exercise, and as I said, I do not endorse the tactics described. I'm not looking to get a definitive answer on anything, just have a civil conversation. If the site administrator can contribute to the convesation without any indication of me "trolling" (lol) why can't you?

BTW, if you don't like the conversation, that's fine. Just drop out.

[matriculated]

In somewhat reverse order...

I think matriculated has an excellent point in that a tactic cannot be fairly evaluated without considering the context in which it is used, and your overall goals for the situation. As an example that Rory Miller does use, if your goal is to get away and survive (which I think would be the goal of most one-citizen-vs-violent-criminal-actor-mugging-type-scenario) then why would you practice joint locks that require to you stay in contact? However, I think you might do so if you envision a scenario where you cannot leave because you (can't physically run, can't leave your spouse, wheel chair bound parent, etc} and lethal force is not justified/the only option.

Yelling as a tactic does have some things to offer in the right situation, and again, context is important. It can be useful for drawing the attention of others, to gain help, to identify to witness that you are the victim not the aggressor (providing you shout the right things), to make sure you keep breathing, to amp yourself up, to help give yourself permission to engage in brutal violence (another key Rory Miller point). But it is something that you should practice, including the specific phrases, because as someone noted above you don't want to be thinking about what to say when you should be thinking about how to get out of whatever you've gotten into. John Farnam calls it a "tape loop"; something you just push the button on and it automatically comes out of your mouth without you having to think about it, so your brain can engage in other things.

I have recently read two of Rory Miller's books: Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected, and Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Techniques and Real World Violence. Both are excellent, Meditations is more useful to me, and in any case I think everyone who contemplates self-defense (and especially those who do not) should read them. These are mind-set books, but not theoretical books. He has written a number of others that I have not read yet.

While Rory Miller has noted the use of acting mentally disturbed to avoid getting into a fight (he is big on doing anything to avoid getting physical), it was AGAIN in a very specific CONTEXT, and it could be counter productive in other contexts. He notes that different kinds of violence and impending violence call for different tactics, and what works for one type will make matters worse in the other.

However, given the overall tone of the two books I have read, I find it hard to believe he actually advocated using racial slurs or other trigger-type words, even once actual physical violence has been started, due to the negatives that others have covered above. I recall he noted that while shouting during a fight can be good, it is for the purposes I covered above -- to help yourself and engage others outside the fight, because it will very likely have no effect on your opponent whatsoever, and he may not even hear what you are saying. If he really did advocate such a thing (bad words), I would like to see the reference and the exact context where it is recommended.

Rory Miller is big on avoiding, de-escalating, not engaging in monkey dances, escaping and evading, and so forth, if at all possible, and trigger words don't seem to fit into this. But when there is no other option left but violence, he thinks it should be ruthless and in sufficient quantity and force to make you safe from the threat.

Umm, replace ELB with matriculated somewhere on there please.... Yea, we're on the same page.

[olafpfj]

[ELB]

I would still like to know where/if Rory Miller advocated something that included what I call trigger words: racial epithets, insults, etc. I have Facing Violence on Kindle, and I just searched it for "racial," "epithet," "bigot," (nothing found on those), "unstable," "insult" and the like. I didn't find anything recommending a tactic of shouting that includes using racial or bigoted terms.

I did find lots of recommendations against insulting someone. If you (matriculated) read this somewhere, I think it was not Rory Miller.

???

[matriculated]

I would still like to know where/if Rory Miller advocated something that included what I call trigger words: racial epithets, insults, etc. I have Facing Violence on Kindle, and I just searched it for "racial," "epithet," "bigot," (nothing found on those), "unstable," "insult" and the like. I didn't find anything recommending a tactic of shouting that includes using racial or bigoted terms.

I did find lots of recommendations against insulting someone. If you (matriculated) read this somewhere, I think it was not Rory Miller.

???

ELB, it's quite possible that i read the specific thing about racial epithets somewhere else. If you read my first post in this thread, it's clear that I'm not 100% sure which one of the several books I'm referring to has the specific thing in it. But Miller DOES have the the thing about making yourself look crazy and willing to do anything, and that's in "Facing Violence," I'm pretty sure. I also do have "Meditations on Violence," and have read it, as well as "Strong on Defense," "Inside the Criminal Mind," "The Gift of Fear," "The Little Black Book of Violence," a couple of books by Marc Animal, and some others....

[matriculated]

BTW, I'm not trying to sell any of these books, nor do I make a profit from their sales. I'm just mentioning some interesting titles that I found enlightening... I'm not a merchant of any kind.

[karder]

Almost any tactic could work in the right situation, but this one is probably not worth too much attention as the downside seems greater than the upside. You can scare a big dog if you sneak up behind it and clap your hands, problem is that he gathers himself quickly and might be really mad. I may put this in my book of techniques, but it would be at the very bottom.

[speedsix]

...as to tactics...it is a known fact that grabbing a large angry dog by the ears can keep him from biting you...until......................

[JackPatrick]

Although I'm not a lawyer, I would argue that by using those words, you are completely throwing away any chance at a self-defense justification.

First off, if you think you would "scare" the BGs in that scenario you painted, I think you are underestimating BGs, and second, you have just provided "motive" to your "crime".

In my opinion, those words are literally the worst thing one could say. Well, except maybe "I'm unarmed and have TONS of cash in here!"

[speedsix]

...I'm not one to wave a gun around...threaten and bluster...if it comes out...I'm not talking...the time for de-escalation is BEFORE we decide there's a threat that needs stopping right now...and I'm aware that a lot of folks here disagree and would do it differently...but it's been proven time and again that if the BG can get you talking...he's got time to move before you react...

[Kabong30]

Keith, there is no "defusing" an armed robbery in progress. This is a planned heist. I was trapped from behind, trapped from the front, nowhere to go with my car, 5 guys armed with bats coming at me.

If this is your situation then you should be in straight up "fight or flight mode". No amount of talk on any subject is likely to save your life. Since you're boxed in I suggest silence punctuated by the sound of gunfire.

I think all anybody is saying is that you endanger your ability to effectively defend yourself should there be a court case. Clearly, you'll do what you want, but if 5 guys are after you with bats I submit that it's past the time for words.

[GEM-Texas]

Having done a lot of FOF, if you start jawing in the open - you are a big fat target. If you open your front door and see burglars - turn around and run.

Second, bad people have heard profanity all the time - you are not going to scare them by such. You are wasting time jawing. In fact, while you are jawing, your attention is diverted. Seen guys with drawn gun (sims) get shot by someone who draws during their blather.

Oh, here's the jury if your shoot isn't seen as righteous. Guess what, it's diverse as will be your jail residence.

If you don't think race will be an issue - for example: check out http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/03 ... tml?ref=us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Racial epithets are a stupid idea - take some real courses. If the book is being misprersented then we need to know that.

[Slowplay]

Racial epithets are a stupid idea - take some real courses. If the book is being misprersented then we need to know that.

I did a very quick read of Rory Miller's Facing Violence book and there is no tactic suggested in there remotely close to the racial slurs mentioned by the OP.

The OP also mentioned "acting crazy" which is briefly discussed in a "group monkey dance" scenario in the book. The de-escalation technique mentioned is an attempt to counter pack behavior when the group wants to give a "Educational Beat Down" or someone in the group wants to put on a "Status Seeking Show," as the crazy person wouldn't follow the monkey dance steps, may not feel pain or fear the beating, or understand the lesson being taught by the group. The group may just move on. The acting crazy is a specific type of crazy (not 'I'm a crazy racist' crazy) - Miller references a "Thorazine twitch" with sharp, small, rythmic movements of the head with twitching...etc.

As I said, there is abolutely NO reference to the use of racial slurs, which is certainly a way to ESCALATE the conflict and help the "Threat" see you as an "Other" (if the Threat didn't already have zero inhibitions about beating or killing, your actions might have just made it so much easier to beat or kill you).

I don't know where the racial slur tactics came from, but there is no way I could see the cited author suggesting anything of the sort.

[speedsix]

...thanks for the facts...

[C-dub]

...as to tactics...it is a known fact that grabbing a large angry dog by the ears can keep him from biting you...until......................

Either of my dogs will just bite whichever forearm get's the closest to their mouth first and trust me when I say that one of them will get close to their mouth. Of course, the bigger problem is getting a hold of their ears with both hands at the same time in the first place.