Westfield wrote:haos » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:53 pm
@XtremeDuty.45
Well maybe I wasn't clear, he does ask for when he legally can use deadly force. And I guess my simplified response would actually be a question. If one of these mobs isn't attacking you or robbing you, why would you WANT to use deadly force in the first place? I don't think you legally could, and I don't logically see why you would want to.
But what if the mob is beating the snot out of defenseless people like they did in Wisconsin ? What should our rersponse if any be ?
I would probably just try to stay out of the way, maintain contact with 911 if possible so the police would know what is happening, show a threat of force ( keeping my firearm in a position where it was known I had it and would use it to protect myself and my family) and just stay alert to my surroundings.
This is one of many reasons I avoid malls and such places as much as possible any way. Hate crowds.
The part about making your weapon known could get you into a lot of legal trouble if the mob is not threatening you personally but in the area. If the mob is in the area and not attacking or threatening you I would think that you would have a hard time proving that you were in fear for your life or even justified in the threat of force much less deadly force. I know there are more but it is 0215 here and it has been a long while since I looked at the TPC.
§ 46.035. ]UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
§ 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in
Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against
another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is
immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or
attempted use of unlawful force.
Last edited by DONT TREAD ON ME on Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
XtremeDuty.45 wrote:Not if it is in self defense. What you are saying is that if I were to be attacked I could legally push the guy off and pull my gun and shoot him but if I was not carrying I could not defend myself with my hands. That is completely untrue.
If the person is no longer a threat and you continue, any action shooting or beating you are in the wrong. He is no longer a threat, once he stops his aggression you must stop yours. Otherwise it is no longer self defense it is assault. By pushing him off you did he stop his assault, if yes then you are wrong. If no, then he is still a threat and you may defend yourself.
KingofChaos wrote: I've seen many a fight were one guy admits defeat, the winner turns to walk away and is hit in the back of the head. Personally, I only stop when the other person is unconscious or in so much pain that they can't get up and continue(broken limb). Don't want that treatment, don't attack me.
See my signature line--says it all.
"All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Here is the reality. You don't know how you will react until you are in the situation. Statistics show 90% will run or panic, and 10% will react. In flash mob one must consider the threat to yourself first, others second. You might be better served being eyes and ears than being a combatant. Again the situation will dictate the response.
In tactical ops you take out the biggest threat first, in other words take out the guy with the automatic weapon before you take out the guy with the pistol. If a leader can be identified take out a leader. Most gang types feed off the energy of the leadership and will back down when the leadership is not around.
Not to mention most gang types feed off the perceived fear they feel they instill in others. When they find someone that they cannot intimidate they will find someone else.
In a flash mob situation you will have to evaluate if your reaction with a weapon will do more harm than good. Again there will be times when your best weapon re your eyes, ears and a cell phone. Let the trained professionals handle it. Even with my background I have to recognize that there are times when the best thing i can do is feed intel to a command post.
Am I the only one who thought this thread was a joke about flash mobs, aka when a bunch of people suddenly start acting or dancing in a synchronized manner in a public place such as grand central station? Was so confused when people started giving serious answers!
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TexasAggie09 wrote:Am I the only one who thought this thread was a joke about flash mobs, aka when a bunch of people suddenly start acting or dancing in a synchronized manner in a public place such as grand central station? Was so confused when people started giving serious answers!
I think this thread probably got started due to the AGGRESSIVE and DANGEROUS "flash mobs" that have been happening lately, in addition to the full-on rioting going on in the UK. Yeah, the origin of "flash mobbing" may have started as some sort of attempt at humor or a social thing, but once the bad guys saw the efficacy of the tactic, they have picked it up now. And I don't think too many of these things are going to end up like Michael Jackson's "Beat It" video, either. All that said, your first responsibility as a CHLer is to your family/friends and self. Professionals get paid to handle dangerous crowds, and they have training and teamwork. I have NEITHER in regards to crowd control or anything of that nature. All I can think is that in one of those situations, I'm looking to get my family and/or friends OUT of the situation as safely and quickly as possible and my weapon is going to be used for that end goal. Then I will contact law enforcement once that has been accomplished. No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy, but if you fail to plan, you plan to fail. If I had the money, and likely when I am able to, I'll be attending classes to get some serious training.
Scroll a little way down the article and look at an actual picture of this Wisconsin flash mob. This would scare the geewillies out of me if I saw this coming my way.
XtremeDuty.45 wrote:Not if it is in self defense. What you are saying is that if I were to be attacked I could legally push the guy off and pull my gun and shoot him but if I was not carrying I could not defend myself with my hands. That is completely untrue.
If the person is no longer a threat and you continue, any action shooting or beating you are in the wrong. He is no longer a threat, once he stops his aggression you must stop yours. Otherwise it is no longer self defense it is assault. By pushing him off you did he stop his assault, if yes then you are wrong. If no, then he is still a threat and you may defend yourself.
I am not even going to reply to that as clearly you have not been paying attention at all.
Lets recap, I will highlight my responses in big bold red letters so they won't be missed again:
XtremeDuty.45 wrote:
suthdj wrote:
XtremeDuty.45 wrote:
suthdj wrote:
XtremeDuty.45 wrote:
We are taught to stop when the threat stops, right? So, who is to say that they guy doing the beating didn't try to stop but the original attacker just kept coming? Kind of like an attacker that gets shot multiple times but keeps on coming. You shouldn't stop until the threat is stopped.
Also, I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard this but it is a good lesson. A guy was driving down the road and saw a car off to the side where a man was beating a woman. Most of us would want to stop and help as it is not right for a man to lay a hand on a woman much less beat a woman. I cannot remember if he intervened or not but it turns out that the man he saw beating the woman was at a gas station when the woman jumped into his car and took off...with his child in the back seat. So, he ran after the car and jumped into the passenger side and got the car to the side of the road and was beating the woman.
All he saw was a man beating a woman and automatically assumed that he was the BG. He was wrong. He saw part B of an incident and by missing part A he didn't have all the info and made a bad assumption.
So, just because someone is getting beaten or looks like a victim does not mean that they really are.
See the part in bold most importantly the underlined. I am not saying the person may not deserve a beating and a half, but that does not make you legally in the right.
See the part in bold most importantly the underlined. If the attacker keeps on attacking and you are in fear for you life you are legally in the right to continue to defend yourself. Some people do not carry guns and therefore rely on their hands to defend themselves.
What my original point was that just because we see an incident does not mean that we know the whole story.
That is true. However the beating no matter how well deserved is still illegal.
Not if it is in self defense. What you are saying is that if I were to be attacked I could legally push the guy off and pull my gun and shoot him but if I was not carrying I could not defend myself with my hands. That is completely untrue.
If its a flash mob just with the intent of looting a store, get clear and stay out of the way. If it's a mob determinedly beating people its still not your responsiblity to do anything to stop it. If the mob is taking an interest in you I would back to a wall and pull a weapon with the firm intention to fire if attacked. I would worry later about brandishing. whether I had to fire or not at this point I would be in fear of life or serious harm.
I try to avoid crowds or events which might get out of control.
Situation awarness. Avoidance is your best defense.
kjolly wrote:If its a flash mob just with the intent of looting a store, get clear and stay out of the way. If it's a mob determinedly beating people its still not your responsiblity to do anything to stop it. If the mob is taking an interest in you I would back to a wall and pull a weapon with the firm intention to fire if attacked. I would worry later about brandishing. whether I had to fire or not at this point I would be in fear of life or serious harm.
I try to avoid crowds or events which might get out of control.
Situation awarness. Avoidance is your best defense.
If you back yourself to a wall you have now just eliminated any escape routes. Also, if the mob is "taking an interest in you" I do not think you would have to worry about brandishing as they are more than likely threatening you with force and you are legally able to use the threat of force to defend yourself. If at that time they do not retreat then you are legally able to defend yourself with deadly force.
XtremeDuty.45 wrote:I am not even going to reply to that as clearly you have not been paying attention at all.
Ok,So by your logic if a person shoots at you then turns and runs away it is ok to shoot him in the back, after all he may turn around and shoot again,right. I think it is who you who has failed to pay attention as from the very begining I have stated once he stops being a threat you can no longer defend yourself as he is no longer attacking. NOT A THREAT
TexasAggie09 wrote:Am I the only one who thought this thread was a joke about flash mobs, aka when a bunch of people suddenly start acting or dancing in a synchronized manner in a public place such as grand central station? Was so confused when people started giving serious answers!
No I am with you, never heard a of looters or riots refered to as a flash mob
I've seen many a fight were one guy admits defeat, the winner turns to walk away and is hit in the back of the head. Personally, I only stop when the other person is unconscious or in so much pain that they can't get up and continue(broken limb). Don't want that treatment, don't attack me.
