Utah/Texas CHL Question

[johnson0317]

Yes, that was my whole point...cheap, quick, not geared to the issuing state. Not sure why you are paranoid about the State of Texas knowing you have it...does not the State of Utah know about it?

[Shinesintx]

Yes, that was my whole point...cheap, quick, not geared to the issuing state. Not sure why you are paranoid about the State of Texas knowing you have it...does not the State of Utah know about it?

We took the Utah test...as well as the Texas test. The Texas test was a joke. The instructor spent most of the class educating us on Texas law.

Paranoid? Do you want to register your guns with the Feds or State govt??? Pretty sure the answer is no. I do not want Texas knowing my business.

Yes Utah knows I have a permit...but I will never go there.

Why are you so anti Utah?

The right to carry is, well, a right that we are made to jump through hoops to obtain said right.

[G.A. Heath]

We took the Utah test...as well as the Texas test. The Texas test was a joke. The instructor spent most of the class educating us on Texas law.

Paranoid? Do you want to register your guns with the Feds or State govt??? Pretty sure the answer is no. I do not want Texas knowing my business.

Yes Utah knows I have a permit...but I will never go there.

Why are you so anti Utah?

The right to carry is, well, a right that we are made to jump through hoops to obtain said right.

First off, what part of a Texas CHL involves registering firearms? Having a CHL doesn't mean that some one owns a gun, it just means their more likely to do so (Kinda like living in the South). As far as Texas knowing your business, they know about your Drives License, automobile license/taxes, your property taxes, voter registration, kids schooling (if applicable), ect. Lets say that the proverbial fecal matter hits the fan, whats to keep Utah from emailing a list of names and addresses of Texas residents who have a CFP to the Texas DPS? In fact I think that your Utah CFP info is tied to your DL/NCIC record just like a Texas CHL is. I am personally not Anti-Utah but I am against the people who abuse the Utah licensing and advertise classes that could end up causing additional restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms (like a particular legislator in Texas tried to do in the recent Session).

[Shinesintx]

We took the Utah test...as well as the Texas test. The Texas test was a joke. The instructor spent most of the class educating us on Texas law.

Paranoid? Do you want to register your guns with the Feds or State govt??? Pretty sure the answer is no. I do not want Texas knowing my business.

Yes Utah knows I have a permit...but I will never go there.

Why are you so anti Utah?

The right to carry is, well, a right that we are made to jump through hoops to obtain said right.

First off, what part of a Texas CHL involves registering firearms? Having a CHL doesn't mean that some one owns a gun, it just means their more likely to do so (Kinda like living in the South). As far as Texas knowing your business, they know about your Drives License, automobile license/taxes, your property taxes, voter registration, kids schooling (if applicable), ect. Lets say that the proverbial fecal matter hits the fan, whats to keep Utah from emailing a list of names and addresses of Texas residents who have a CFP to the Texas DPS? In fact I think that your Utah CFP info is tied to your DL/NCIC record just like a Texas CHL is. I am personally not Anti-Utah but I am against the people who abuse the Utah licensing and advertise classes that could end up causing additional restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms (like a particular legislator in Texas tried to do in the recent Session).

1) Having a Texas CHL simply implies that I have own a handgun. Be honest with yourself...what percentage of CHL holders do YOU actually think are not gun owners? Be honest about this...

2) What Texas already knows about me...is what they already know. I cannot control that. I can keep them from knowing that I have a Utah CWP.If Utah tells Texas that I have a Utah permit...there is nothing that I can do about that. One thing that is for certain, I do not show up in any Texas database as having one at the moment. I have a buddy who checked it out for me. So no, you are not certain that my Utah PERMIT is not tied to my Tx DL.

3) You saying that you are "personally not Anti-Utah but I am against the people who abuse the Utah licensing and advertise classes that could end up causing additional restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms" is a bit offensive to me. Why? This part of your statement: restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms

4) How did I abuse Utah licensing?


I am not trying to argue and get in to a flame war with you...my intent is to enter dialogue and reason with you- a discussion per say.

[srothstein]

I do not care where you got your license from, and basically agree that we should not need a licenser to carry. But, the current state of the law disagrees with me on what is or is not a Second Amendment infringement, so we have licensing laws. I am going to attempt to answer your questions from this point of view, with the caveat that I am not attacking you, just correcting some possible misconceptions.

1) Having a Texas CHL simply implies that I have own a handgun. Be honest with yourself...what percentage of CHL holders do YOU actually think are not gun owners? Be honest about this...

Having any CHL from any state implies you are interested in handguns. It does not necessarily imply you have one though, as you may get the license for other reasons. One of the more famous reasons, and it is just a Texas reason as far as I know, is to bypass metal detectors and long lines. When the legislature passed rules to increase the security at the state capitol, they recognized that the law allowed CHL's to carry there. The legislators did not want to change the law to carve out an exception for their own offices (based on politics and possible repercussions). So, they included int he rule a bypass line for anyone with a CHL. Many lobbyists, reporters, and state employees have either gotten CHLs already, started the process, or thought about it, just to pass the long lines trying to get into the capitol during the session and tourist seasons. Given the lack of a session now, the lines are down and it remains to be seen how many more will get CHLs for this reason, but this was widely reported. Obviously, there are no numbers available on this, since we do not ask why people are getting their CHL. I do not think it is a significant percentage, but it could be a large number when looked at as an absolute number.

2) What Texas already knows about me...is what they already know. I cannot control that. I can keep them from knowing that I have a Utah CWP.If Utah tells Texas that I have a Utah permit...there is nothing that I can do about that. One thing that is for certain, I do not show up in any Texas database as having one at the moment. I have a buddy who checked it out for me. So no, you are not certain that my Utah PERMIT is not tied to my Tx DL.

States are well known to share information, so keeping Texas from knowing is not met if it was a requirement. Texas may not have your name in the database your friend checked, and your Utah permit is certainly not tied to your Texas DL. That does not mean that Texas does not knwo or have your name in its databases somewhere. There are many databases that are not public or even available between agencies without some coordination.

3) You saying that you are "personally not Anti-Utah but I am against the people who abuse the Utah licensing and advertise classes that could end up causing additional restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms" is a bit offensive to me. Why? This part of your statement: restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms

As a result of the Utah classes and licenses being issued, there was a bill introduced in the recent legislative session to require Texas residents to have a Texas CHL. Utah did pass a law saying that no new licenses would be issued to out of state residents, and no existing licenses like that would be renewed, if the person did not have a license from the state they were a resident of. This is not a serious restriction for Texas residents, but it is a serious restriction for residents of states that have permissive licensing. it may be a problem for a Texas resident that meets the Utah requirements but does not meet Texas requirements. these are additional restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms that may be problems for some people, even if they do not affect me directly.

4) How did I abuse Utah licensing?

If you took a class that taught you Texas law instead of Utah law, you abused their licensing, in my opinion. I am not sure if your class even met the letter of their law or not. Texas law has specific material that must be covered in the class, and I would be surprised if Utah did not. I would be even more surprised if their class requirements said to teach any state's laws other than Utah's. If the class met both the Utah requirements and taught the Texas law in addition, then you did not abuse the licensing provisions, in my opinion. This would be the only point of contention on their lciensign that I can think of though.

[G.A. Heath]

As for #1 My experience shows it would be higher than you think. First in my CHL class (a little over 4 years ago) we had 8 students, three borrowed handguns to qualify with because they didn't own one. Locally I know of two people who have a CHL but do not own a handgun because their employer paid for the class and the license as a Christmas present. Its an indicator that someone is more likely to own a handgun, but doesn't mean that they do.

Regarding #2 I may have thought wrong about the UT license being tied to the DL or NCIC record, however I believe it is a requirement for at least one state for reciprocity reasons.

Looking at #3 I didn't mean to offend you, however UT instructors aggressively marketing the UT license as an alternative to a resident license has caused problems for people in more than one state by those states either dropping reciprocity or simply refusing to recognise non-resident licenses. As a Texas resident using only a UT license you can not legally carry in Colorado, Florida, Michigan, and New Hampshire where a UT resident with the same permit can. A Texas permit would restore Colorado, Florida, Michigan. How can anyone say that the abuse of non-resident permits has not harmed our rights?

and finally for #4 Like srothstein said, if you class taught TX law instead of UT law then it was an abuse of the non-resident process. Additionally you talk about the Texas test being a joke, does this mean that you want to make it more difficult for people to get a license?

[Shoot Straight]

Looking at #3 I didn't mean to offend you, however UT instructors aggressively marketing the UT license as an alternative to a resident license has caused problems for people in more than one state

If we're being honest, it's not the Utah instructors or students who are causing problems. It's the people who are prejudiced against them who are causing the problems.

and finally for #4 Like srothstein said, if you class taught TX law instead of UT law then it was an abuse of the non-resident process.

If it was instead of Utah law you're right, but anyone familiar with the Utah class rules knows they allow instructors to teach more the topics required by Utah, and even combo-state classes if the rules are followed.

Additionally you talk about the Texas test being a joke, does this mean that you want to make it more difficult for people to get a license?

The people who make the Texas CHL so expensive are the ones doing that. It sounds like he's saying that since they're both "a joke" because they don't stop anyone, they just make it more expensive and more of a hassle, it makes good sense to choose the option that's least expensive and least hassle for the same benefit.

[Skiprr]

We took the Utah test...as well as the Texas test. The Texas test was a joke. The instructor spent most of the class educating us on Texas law.

To my knowledge, there is no test--written or practical--for the Utah CFP. It's been several years, though, since I got my CFP, so if I'm mistaken about this Crossfire or one of our other Utah-certified instructors will correct me.

If we're being honest, it's not the Utah instructors or students who are causing problems. It's the people who are prejudiced against them who are causing the problems.

It's a moot point now, though. As of May 11, 2011, Texas residents may not obtain a new Utah CFP without providing proof that they already have a Texas CHL. For CFP renewals, that law goes into effect January 1, 2012.

and finally for #4 Like srothstein said, if you class taught TX law instead of UT law then it was an abuse of the non-resident process.

If it was instead of Utah law you're right, but anyone familiar with the Utah class rules knows they allow instructors to teach more the topics required by Utah, and even combo-state classes if the rules are followed.

That's no longer correct. BCI now requires that the Utah CFP course be taught in its entirety, start to finish, and not comingled with information about other states' laws or concealed carry requirements. BCI no longer allows instructors to teach what used to be called "multi-state permits" classes.

For reference, see the "Utah Concealed Firearms Instructor Newsletter" from April, 2011.