Plano School District has 30.06 posted parking lots

[denwego]

Don't forget what exactly §30.06(e) says:

(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

While government property is normally entirely exempted from §30.06, the fact that school premises are prohibited under §46.03 means that in addition to a potential felony charge, you could be facing a Class A misdemeanor charge as well, increased to a state-jail-felony under §46.11. You may argue "premises" don't include a parking lot, which I would incline to agree, but that's a dearth of potential felonies to risk.

[MasterOfNone]

Don't forget what exactly §30.06(e) says:

(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

While government property is normally entirely exempted from §30.06, the fact that school premises are prohibited under §46.03 means that in addition to a potential felony charge, you could be facing a Class A misdemeanor charge as well, increased to a state-jail-felony under §46.11. You may argue "premises" don't include a parking lot, which I would incline to agree, but that's a dearth of potential felonies to risk.

This is not a difficult point to argue. The definition of "premises" used by 46.03 and 46.035 clearly states that the parking lot is not included. So having a gun in the parking lot of a school is not a violation of 46.03(a)(1)
Because the parking lot of a school is not prohibited under 46.03, the government property exception to 30.06 still applies.
46.11 only applies to Chapter 46 ("...an offense under this chapter...") and specifically does not apply to 46.03(a)(1) per 46.11(b), so it has no significance in this case.

[jimlongley]

Responses in red below:

I have called every level of authority I can think of about this starting with my CHL Instructor. Everyone I've talked to, including Sherrifs, Police Officers, Austin Admin etc. (I even called the Texas Rangers) they all give me the exact same answer.

They don't know.

I even had the local police tell me "If it's concealed, who's gonna know?". I said well what happens if you get into a fender bender in the parking lot and the police show up. Now you're a felon! He said "yeah... that wouldn't be good".

Question 1: Can a public school (which I believe is a government entity) post the parking lot with a 30.06 sign? Well... they already have, but is it legal for them to do so? This effectively prevents a carrying CHL holder from entering the car pool line.

30.06 does not apply to property owned or leased by the government. So if the school is on government property, it does not apply and you may carry outside the buildings.

Question 2: The Texas Penal code defines 'premises' as a building or part of a building and even goes on to specifically state that it DOES NOT include a parking lot, public or private drive etc. So how does Grape Vine mills or any other business pull off posting 30.06 in their parking lot?

That definition of "premises" only applies to 46.03 and 46.035. In general, private property owners can prohibit you from any part of their property.

Question 3: Where is the current Texas Penal code? Every copy I find says you can't carry in a church and I see all of you are carrying in a church.

Churches are off-limits only if 30.06 notice is provided.

I am perplexed at the level of non-knowingness I have experience on these two issues. I humbly await a proper education.

PISD's response, when contacted about this exact issue several years ago, was that: They are not a governmental body, they are an "Independant" school district, and that school property is private property, and the posting is valid, and they will arrest and prosecute.

And; (Since the lettering is not compliant) That the lettering is compliant as far as their legal counsel is concerned, and they will arrest and prosecute.

And; The school resource officers questioned on the issue, will arrest.

And; Plano PD's official stance is that they will arrest.

Been through this with them, extensively, my wife works for PISD, and there are a couple of other old threads on the issue.

PISD has been notified that their signs do not comply with the letter of the law for a variety of reasons, and they disagree.

[sjfcontrol]

Just screams for a test case, followed by a civil-rights lawsuit, doesn't it!
(No, I'm not volunteering.)

[i8godzilla]

Could not someone of a "protected class" with a CHL file an intimidation lawsuit?

Being an American-Mexican (I prefer this over Mexican-American), I am not a fan of the whole protected class logic. But in this instance why not use the law to get the intended result?

[MasterOfNone]

PISD's response, when contacted about this exact issue several years ago, was that: They are not a governmental body, they are an "Independant" school district, and that school property is private property, and the posting is valid, and they will arrest and prosecute.

Everything I can find in Texas statutes indicates that an ISD is a government entity. "Independent" only means that they are not part of any other subdivision, such as a county or municipality. I guarantee that if someone challenged their ability to collect taxes, the next words out of their mouths would confirm that they are a government entity.
This is just another case of the arrogance of people in power.

[Keith B]

The property is either government-owned or it is not. If you have a chance, check out the county's website and see who is on the deed.
And 30.05 (criminal trespass) does not have the government property exception.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the Plano Police department disagrees with both of us.

Plano has a 30.06 sign strategically posted at the entrance of every parking lot of every school. I think this is one of those thing you might be able to spend a lot of money to beat in court, but you're not gonna beat the ride.

Your first mistake was calling the Plano Police/Plano Public Schools. They are incorrect in their interpretation. Public schools are funded by taxes, which makes them a government entity. The postings are not legally enforceable. Now, if caught carrying on the school grounds while no school activity is taking place, they may decide to push their interpretation and arrest you. It has not be tried and no test case that I am aware of. However, being on the school grounds without a school function going and not entering the buildings (premise) is totally legal if you have a Texas CHL.

[Fedaykin]

As for the second problem, you now have an idea what is meant by beating the rap but not the ride. The local police will consider that 30.06 valid and will arrest you. I am sure that any decent lawyer would get the case thrown out of court, if the D.A. took it that far. But for a day to day purpose, the cop's interpretation is what you really need to concern yourself with. It is what determines if you spend a night in the county jail.

FINALLY, some sound advice! Thank you srothstein.

And to all, thank you very much for your consideration and advice. I posted this to make people aware of the situation and to find out if anyone had a clear indication of 'right' or 'wrong'.

To be clear it was never a mistake of any sort to contact law enforcement about this. After all, it is ultimately their initial decision that will affect a CHL holders short term freedom.

Whether or not they are just in following the letter of the law will come further down the road. I have absolutely no interest in becoming a test case in Plano so I contacted SERVERAL levels of law enforcement and got the same answer from each. Don't do it, you will go to jail. That is enforceable enough for me.

Had I only contacted a lawyer, legistator or armchair legal advisor the answer would be "Go ahead! You're clear to enter the parking lot". That advice would have gotten a CHL holder arrested.

My advice? ALWAYS contact a LEO if you want to find out if you're going to go to jail or not. If you don't like his answer, then consult the attorneys, legislators and armchair legal advisors...

[Keith B]

My advice? ALWAYS contact a LEO if you want to find out if you're going to go to jail or not. If you don't like his answer, then consult the attorneys, legislators and armchair legal advisors...

I will respectfully disagree here. I am a former LEO and will tell you they are often incorrect on the proper interpretation of laws that they don't deal with regularly. Additionally, they often get incorrect advice from a city attorney or other legal voice that may have a tendency to play on the side they want the law to be, even when it is not. LEO's and Lawyers have a large propensity to 'just say no' when it comes to these types of things instead of really researching the facts. And, sure, if you don't carry, they can't arrest you for it, but it IS legal.

Bottom line, I have carried numerous times on Plano school grounds, and will continue to do so if I not prohibited by the other statutes that limit me from doing so. If you are carrying properly, then they should not even know and there will be no problem. If forced to use my weapon to defend myself and I am found carrying, I will deal with it at that time.

[hirundo82]

PISD's response, when contacted about this exact issue several years ago, was that: They are not a governmental body, they are an "Independant" school district, and that school property is private property, and the posting is valid, and they will arrest and prosecute.

I'm sure they'd disagree that they aren't a government entity if someone used that statement to argue that they shouldn't have to support the school with their tax money.

Whether or not they are just in following the letter of the law will come further down the road. I have absolutely no interest in becoming a test case in Plano so I contacted SERVERAL levels of law enforcement and got the same answer from each. Don't do it, you will go to jail. That is enforceable enough for me.

Had I only contacted a lawyer, legistator or armchair legal advisor the answer would be "Go ahead! You're clear to enter the parking lot". That advice would have gotten a CHL holder arrested.

My advice? ALWAYS contact a LEO if you want to find out if you're going to go to jail or not. If you don't like his answer, then consult the attorneys, legislators and armchair legal advisors...

This is as clear an example of an unenforceable §30.06 posting as I can think of. Any agency that tells their officers to arrest people for having a firearm in their vehicle on school property is begging for a lawsuit.

You can be arrested for anything. If you're that afraid of getting arrested for something that isn't illegal but a LEO doesn't like, I'd suggest you not carry a gun.

[RottenApple]

My advice? ALWAYS contact a LEO if you want to find out if you're going to go to jail or not. If you don't like his answer, then consult the attorneys, legislators and armchair legal advisors...

So if a LEO tells you that you can't walk on the westbound sidewalk on the third tuesday of the month between the hours of 2pm and 4pm or you'll be arrested, you're actually going to obey him? I realize that it's a silly example but that is, in essence, what you are saying. The laws are written to be fairly clear (in this instance). And in this case, they have no legal basis for detaining you. If they do arrest you, then you have a defense to prosecution in that PISD is a government entity and the law clearly allows you to carry within the parking lot. Another thing, if your weapon were properly concealed, then LEO would have no knowledge of it unless you did something to call attention to it.

Personally, while I don't have my CHL yet, I carry in my vehicle under the MPA all the time. And on those rare occasions when I pick up my kids at school, I don't disarm. Of course, my kids' ISD isn't silly enough to post an unenforceable 30.06 sign at the entrance to their parking lots. But if they did, I'd have no problem driving right past it, sitting in line to pick up my kids, and then driving off.

[Keith B]

Personally, while I don't have my CHL yet, I carry in my vehicle under the MPA all the time. And on those rare occasions when I pick up my kids at school, I don't disarm. Of course, my kids' ISD isn't silly enough to post an unenforceable 30.06 sign at the entrance to their parking lots. But if they did, I'd have no problem driving right past it, sitting in line to pick up my kids, and then driving off.

Just be aware you are in violation of the Federal Gun Free School Zone act without a CHL. And while no one has been arrested for this only, you are still illegally carrying when you do this within 1000 feet of a school.

[RottenApple]

Just be aware you are in violation of the Federal Gun Free School Zone act without a CHL. And while no one has been arrested for this only, you are still illegally carrying when you do this within 1000 feet of a school.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of that.

[Fedaykin]

This is as clear an example of an unenforceable §30.06 posting as I can think of. Any agency that tells their officers to arrest people for having a firearm in their vehicle on school property is begging for a lawsuit.

You can be arrested for anything. If you're that afraid of getting arrested for something that isn't illegal but a LEO doesn't like, I'd suggest you not carry a gun.

By all means, you're free to pump your fist in the air and challenge the system. I am happy that we have people to volunteer as test cases. I just don't have the time or the money. If you feel that being arrested by Plano is trivial, go for it. It has nothing to do with whether or not I should carry.

I dedicated 8 years of my life serving my country to make sure we all could carry You're welcome.

[Fedaykin]

Bottom line, I have carried numerous times on Plano school grounds, and will continue to do so if I not prohibited by the other statutes that limit me from doing so. If you are carrying properly, then they should not even know and there will be no problem.

I've heard this argument multiple times. If you're concealed... etc. What you're failing to consider is if you get into a fender bending in the car pool line in the school parking lot and the LEO thats directing traffic walks over to get ID's and insurance because the other driver is making a stink you're in hot water. Plano is going to send you to jail. Properly concealed or not. If you're good with that, awesome for the rest of us. I look forward to someone beating the rap and getting the signs removed. I only wish you didn't have to take the ride.