CHL Fires at Waffle House Robbers (What Would You Do?)

[Chrispy]

This happened a couple of weeks ago but I just saw it. I searched the forum and didn't see anything about it so wanted to bring it up.

Here's the news story with an interview of the CHL holder:
http://www.khou.com/news/crime/Waffle-H ... 66954.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a follow up where the news channel discusses the legality of shooting back after the robbery.
http://www.khou.com/home/Armed-Waffle-H ... 14449.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a CHL holder when I see events like this I like to run through the scenario in my head. You never know what the situation is going to be if it ever happens to you. It's best to be prepared for as many different situations as possible.

First of all, I would have had my handgun IWB, not in the car (unless Waffle House is posted 30.06). So the situation would be a little different. Three gunmen come in and one puts his gun in my face. I certainly would have felt that everyone's life including mine was in danger. Would it be smart to draw and fire when there are three of them? After I realize that they are after wallets and cash I would probably hand over mine and not draw. After they leave I would probably run out to try to get a description of the car and direction of travel but wouldn't fire (assuming that they are driving away and I don't feel like I'm in danger). Firing at a moving vehicle on the street endangers others but also could get you killed by police responding to a 911 call.

It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. Luckily, no innocent people were hurt as it turned out. I'm just wondering what I would do if I was in the situation in fear for my life with adrenalin racing.

What do you think you would do? Would you draw to protect the lives of yourself and the 3rd parties or realize that you're out gunned, try to stay calm, and wait it out? Anything else?

[WildBill]

I think that this is the perfect reason to think out scenarios before they happen.

I think that the robbery victim just got mad so he ran out and starting firing as the vehicle drove away. I would not do that. I would try to get a description and license plate of the vehicle.

In this case he could have legally shot the men, but he probably would have been shot and killed along with others in the store. In this situation, I wouldn't draw on three armed men unless they had fired shots.

[Greybeard]

Observe. Orient. Decide. Act. Hopefully with reason over emotion.

[Beiruty]

3 robbers? I may try to exit. However, I will pull and shoot the first robbers who approaches me. I will take on 1, 2 or 3 if needed. In a gunfight one has to expect a return of fire and being shot. Best example, the jeweler who took on 3 robbers and survived.

Note: Last robber to exit the restaurant look like a girl.

[03Lightningrocks]

Lord have mercy! The guy shooting his gun 15 times is far more dangerous to society than the robbers. At least they were not stupid enough to send bullets flying all over the place. Thank goodness Rambo didn't take out any innocent victims.

[Kirk]

I would have to be there to be sure what my actions would be, If the other 2 were concentrating on the other people I believe I would have drawn my XD40 and fired on the BG robbing me depending on his position. IMO the others would not know who fired and either flee or look around to see if it was one of BG who fire allowing time to take cover and aim. Only then fire again if the shot is clear. My assumption is the BGs intend to harm me while in the store. Once outside its time to record and much information as possible about what they are driving and the plate on the car. Not trying to be a cowboy but everyone need to decide what is right for themselves.

“I shot like 15 times. I shot five times running, and I get to the gate I shot 10 more times,” Houston said.

What CHL class did he take? Where did his 15 shots go? Definitely a wrong choice IMO!

[austin-tatious]

Wow, talk about food for thought.

I can see at least one employee was not robbed. Between about -3:25 and -2:45 you can see them through the glass in the door in the back. I wonder if that person called 911? What made them look through the door so long? I'm surprised no robber checked behind door number one. If I had been in the back, I would have left through the back door as soon as I saw what was happening. Then call 911.

There is a lady in a blue dress who crawls under her table and tries to hide (-1:35 to -1:02). The footage that shows that part of the cafe indicates the robber did not notice her. Maybe they got to her when we can't see that table. Besides that, the robber who walks by her location does not seem to notice her and he has his rifle in his left hand with butt forward and loot in his right hand. Appears he was neither observant or ready to respond to resistance.

I would have my "throw down" wallet out to give them by the time they got to me, if possible. Maybe they would not think to have me stand up and empty my pockets. You can see at least one patron was ready to give them their wallet and did so. That person was not frisked (as far as I can see).

Seeing how casual the robbers were, I suspect a highly trained operator would have easily shot and stopped all three. I am not an operator, much less highly trained.

One thing I do need to change is carrying my spare mag in a case in my front pocket. I bet observant robbers would notice the bulge that I failed to remove when they asked me to empty my pockets.

[Piney]

This gentleman was no longer in any danger. He then decides to place himself and everyone down field from him in danger by chasing a group of armed robbery suspects behind a gas station and begins firing at them as they drive off in a vehicle 15 rounds and not even any glass broken in an SUV ?



Legal ? Possibly (INAL by the way...)
STUPID? ABSOLUTELY !

Would I have drawn to protect myself ? Possibly. I wasnt there so armcharing the exact situation doesnt work. Where were the others? Is there a clear shot at the other two ? The one at arms length to me would be out of the fight at that range, but once that shot goes off all heck breaks loose--people get up, run around, ect and the whole field changes. The original field comprised of a crowded resturant changes dynamically.

A personal question that needs asking ones self is-- Is what was taken worth the $$$$$ it may cost me if one of my (or in this case one of the gentleman's 15 rounds) rounds missed its intended marks ?

Would I have drawn to "get even", if you will, with the guys for robbing the store AFTER they left? Absolutely not ! Armed robbery report on the air. LEOs heading to the scene-I'm not going to be out running in a parking lot with my pistol blazing.

[whodat1]

I agree with austin-tatious. This is exactly why I carry a throw-down wallet 100% of the time.

[sugar land dave]

First and foremost, after the threat is stopped, in this case by the robbers leaving, I think it is a bad decision to quickly engage in a hot pursuit to recover stolen property. I also don't think that I can say on this forum how I feel about emptying a full clip out on the street at a moving target. While it looks good on TV, I do not think it is reasonable behavior in a densely populated city where each miss may find an unintended target.

Like it or not, every time there is a highly visible incident with a chl holder, it reflects on all of us.

[mgood]

“I shot like 15 times. I shot five times running, and I get to the gate I shot 10 more times,” Houston said.

What CHL class did he take? Where did his 15 shots go? Definitely a wrong choice IMO!

Exactly!
"Be sure of your target and what is beyond it."
Does he know, can he really KNOW, that none of those shots were fired in the general direction of innocent people? We have a right to defend property to a degree that citizens of other states do not enjoy. BUT, legal or not (and that may be debatable), I think he let his emotions override his common sense.

[C-dub]

It will be interesting to see what the DA does. I thought the news legal analyst said about "the right of fresh pursuit" was interesting. He thinks what the guy did was legal.

[gemini]

As always, with this type scenario we have many varied opinions. Is anyone here familiar with the area this took place?
Has anyone read or know if the CHL holder was firing "willy nilly", not caring where his missed shots might end up? Did the
back of the gas station act as a bullet backstop? Was he firing into an embankment, a bar ditch or creek etc?
I think he had every legal right to persue the armed robbers. I'm not sure it was a wise decision, but I also wasn't there.
Was the property taken worth the risk of personal harm to the presuer? Maybe. $600 might be chump change for some
individuals, but it might be that months entire rent payment for another. Pretty valuable if you're struggling financially.
In reading PC 9.42 I can't find where a specific amount or value is mentioned in being able to retrieve property or stop
a fleeing BG. What may be a situation of "get all the info I can,and be a good witness" for some...... may be a "I have
to do everything in my power to prevent the BG's escape with my $600/property or I won't have a house to live in".
And I don't see a problem with either action. Thinking out various scenarios, that include what you will or won't be willing to do,
and exactly under what circumstances. I'm liking the difference of opinions ...... makes me think.

[Oldgringo]

First and foremost, after the threat is stopped, in this case by the robbers leaving, I think it is a bad decision to quickly engage in a hot pursuit to recover stolen property. I also don't think that I can say on this forum how I feel about emptying a full clip out on the street at a moving target. While it looks good on TV, I do not think it is reasonable behavior in a densely populated city where each miss may find an unintended target.

, A CHL is not a Batman license.

[Kirk]

As always, with this type scenario we have many varied opinions. Is anyone here familiar with the area this took place?
Has anyone read or know if the CHL holder was firing "willy nilly", not caring where his missed shots might end up? Did the
back of the gas station act as a bullet backstop? Was he firing into an embankment, a bar ditch or creek etc?
I think he had every legal right to persue the armed robbers. I'm not sure it was a wise decision, but I also wasn't there.
Was the property taken worth the risk of personal harm to the presuer? Maybe. $600 might be chump change for some
individuals, but it might be that months entire rent payment for another. Pretty valuable if you're struggling financially.
In reading PC 9.42 I can't find where a specific amount or value is mentioned in being able to retrieve property or stop
a fleeing BG. What may be a situation of "get all the info I can,and be a good witness" for some...... may be a "I have
to do everything in my power to prevent the BG's escape with my $600/property or I won't have a house to live in".
And I don't see a problem with either action. Thinking out various scenarios, that include what you will or won't be willing to do,
and exactly under what circumstances. I'm liking the difference of opinions ...... makes me think.

Yes, I know the area as I drive through it every day. His shots would either hit traffic or into concrete from the over pass. Beside the gas station beside it the is only one other business but there is traffic. Maybe he is a great shot while running and is able to control where his bullets are going. I know I could not do it and would not fire IMO wildly after they have left the store.