What to do when it is 2+ assailants with guns flanking you?

[Purplehood]

I have thought about this very scenario myself. I am relatively sure that If I didn't lock-up totally I would immediately try to take out the perp that looks like the biggest threat first. This means that the perp looks more aggressive, more professional, has a better chance of hitting you, whatever...at that point I would probably be getting religious and praying that I turn-around and take out the next one.

[kjolly]

I'm seeing to many pat answers from armchair quarterbacks. The best fight (up to a point) is the fight avoided. In the service station incident you have no responsiblity to the store. Doing nothing protects youe family. In the road block I'm shocked that she let some measly stones intimdate her into stopping. LAte at night, don't stop. In the housewife incident it sounds like she did not have a chance. They were there to kill her and there was nothing she could do.

[Purplehood]

I'm seeing to many pat answers from armchair quarterbacks. The best fight (up to a point) is the fight avoided. In the service station incident you have no responsiblity to the store. Doing nothing protects youe family. In the road block I'm shocked that she let some measly stones intimdate her into stopping. LAte at night, don't stop. In the housewife incident it sounds like she did not have a chance. They were there to kill her and there was nothing she could do.

Um, we are all arm-chair quarterbacks and anything one says in retrospect, is a "pat answer".

[Excaliber]

The reaction gap for someone with a drawn gun is actually around a half a second - not enough time for most of us to draw and fire.

We're speaking at cross-purposes.

I'm not talking about someone who is primed and ready for resistance as they would be if it were a man - important distinction.

I'm speaking of a mugger who has two women and a small child at gunpoint - resistance is not what they expect and I've seen informal tests during ant-hijack courses where the guys weren't told what was going to happen. Almost all guys blinked and took a half-step back before their brain caught up and told them to pull the trigger, and the typical time was between 1 and 2 seconds.

Regardless of the actual time available, my point was that there is *some* time - problem is, nobody knows beforehand if it'll be enough.

Unlike in training simulations, real muggers are most often in a high state of arousal and their reactions are very quick.

Making an accurate assessment of likely reaction times has a direct impact on tactic selection.

If you have to be wrong, err on thinking your opponent is faster than he actually is.

Acting on the assumption he is slower has much worse results when the estimate is off.

[speedsix]

...pray as you decide whether to hit the gas or go for your gun...surrender to armed assailants is less and less a good option, especially for a woman...there's scarcely time to notice what kind of gun each has and determine which might penetrate glass better...this is where your mind should already be made up beforehand...the viciousness of robbers is much more than even 10 years ago...shooting for little or no reason is common...
...being armed...locking doors...being aware...praying for wisdom...are about all we can do to prepare for these kinds of situation...there is no right answer....

[Hoi Polloi]

I've been following the responses closely and it is causing me to have much to think about. I don't typically walk around with a preschooler and a senior citizen, but I think that was a good approximation of the kinds of real-world scenarios many people could face. I'm very grateful for the conversation as iron sharpens iron and I have a considerable amount more to think about now.

Thank you all!

[Shoot Straight]

If they're not going to attack me, I can take as long as I want. I can even safely walk away at a leisurely pace.

If they are going to attack me, the sooner and more often I shoot them, the less likely I am to be killed. There's no guarantees, but a violent (counter-)attack is statistically the safest response for the good guys.

Of course, each adult can make their own decision and (being an adult) deal with the consequences.

[karder]

Obviously all situations are unique so it is hard to say any particular action would be appropriate. First, don't ever get flanked. Keep alert.
I am often out with my wife's family (all women) and I often find myself in situations where I am with a group of 6 or 7 women or young girls, age 91 to 13 and the responsibility for the group falls on me. I have often wondered what I would do if we were to find ourselves in the middle of a robbery or were engaged by armed individuals. Running would not be optional as I would not leave the family behind. I think that the philosophy I have settled on is sort of a foxhole mentality. Defend position. If we are in a booth at a restaurant, defend the booth, no one come in, no one goes out. If we are in a car, defend the car. I am not concerned with defending the business, just the little corner of it that we are occupying at the time. I would not be in a position to stop a crime, or apprehend anyone, but I am going to draw and hold our position. I will let the BG decide if they want to bring the fight to me. At least that is the general line of thinking that I have adopted. If I am by myself, I have a lot more options.

[Excaliber]

Unlike in training simulations, real muggers are most often in a high state of arousal and their reactions are very quick.

These were highly experienced shooters doing the test - but never mind, think what you prefer; I won't be taking part in this discussion any longer. I was simply making the point that a reaction-gap does exists and that it might be possible to take advantage of it - but if you want to split hairs, knock yourself out.

Andy, I agree with the concept of considering a potential reaction gap and the potential for exploiting it. My extension of that thought is a caution that on today's streets that gap is very often much smaller than the durations you cited.

Many muggers today will shoot you right away for simply not responding fast enough. These guys are hyped, often on stimulant drugs, extremely fast in their reflexes, and totally uninhibited about killing people - in other words, primed to shoot. Some, like the suspect who shot the two men outside the Garland music studio a couple years ago, will shoot anyway without any provocation at all.

My point is that assuming a reactionary gap of a second or more carries a very high risk. Even if you beat his shot with yours by .2 seconds, you'll still very probably get shot too. That may be the best situation available to you at the time, but the reason I have engaged in splitting hairs here is so folks with less street experience than you have will understand the risks involved as they think through their personal plans.

YMMV.

[Luggo1]

A technique for 2 on 1 that is commonly taught at defensive pistol schools is "stacking". You must be aware of the problem obviously and be moving before the guns come out if possible, to "stack" the attackers in a line so that you are only engaging one at a time, the 2nd assailant will have to shoot through his buddy to you. This is blackboard theory, but it is taught and has been used effectively. Shooting on the move and from awkward positions is part and parcel of this...but let's face it, it's a really bad position where there aren't really good answers...

BAD BAD

BAD BAD YOU(2)

YOU (1)

[Photoman]

Alternate rounds between the two until the threat stops.

I'm not sure this is a good plan. The idea is to be shot at by the least number of people possible. Pick the one that looks like the greatest threat and shoot until he/she is no longer a threat then address the second (if the second is still a threat). Don't forget to move (!) and breathe.

[Purplehood]

Alternate rounds between the two until the threat stops.

I'm not sure this is a good plan. The idea is to be shot at by the least number of people possible. Pick the one that looks like the greatest threat and shoot until he/she is no longer a threat then address the second (if the second is still a threat). Don't forget to move (!) and breathe.

Hey! I said that!

[sawdust]

.....Many muggers today will shoot you right away for simply not responding fast enough. These guys are hyped, often on stimulant drugs, extremely fast in their reflexes, and totally uninhibited about killing people - in other words, primed to shoot. Some, like the suspect who shot the two men outside the Garland music studio a couple years ago, will shoot anyway without any provocation at all.....

Today's world:

Mugger: "Give me your money!!!!!"
Me [deaf old man]: "What? I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said."
Mugger:


Tactics, schmactics. 1.0 seconds or .5 seconds. Sometimes you can only roll the dice and hope for the best.

[Ameer]

.....Many muggers today will shoot you right away for simply not responding fast enough. These guys are hyped, often on stimulant drugs, extremely fast in their reflexes, and totally uninhibited about killing people - in other words, primed to shoot. Some, like the suspect who shot the two men outside the Garland music studio a couple years ago, will shoot anyway without any provocation at all.....

Today's world:

Mugger: "Give me your money!!!!!"
Me [deaf old man]: "What? I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said."
Mugger:


Tactics, schmactics. 1.0 seconds or .5 seconds. Sometimes you can only roll the dice and hope for the best.

That's a good argument for don't waste time. Draw and shoot immediately.

It's also a good argument to wear your holster near your wallet.