BAD EXPERIENCE: Dallas Museum of Art

[txinvestigator]

Edit; after reviewing the Deeds online, Hillwood did pay for and build the structure, but after entering into a lease with the City of Dallas.

I don't care enough to try and prove you right or wrong, so I'll just concede that you're probably right. I do know that it was Hillwood who wrote our checks for building the thing, but I don't know what arrangements they may have had with the city.

Either way we can't carry as long as they've got those silly metal detectors at the doors.

It is a very oddly structured deal. The grantor/grantee files shows Dallas Basketball Ltd as the actual owner of the building. At least that who is paying the taxes, but there are several agreements and different deeds with various other entities listed in relation to the same legal description.

What does appear to be consistent is that the City of Dallas maintains ownership of the land.

Regardless, I agree that the metal detectors are silly.

[StexFJR]

TXI thanks for answering my question.

[Tote 9]

Life is fraught with danger. I don't go to places where I think I might need a handgun, if avoidable. I carry a handgun everywhere I legally can. I also am not so paranoid that I would refuse to attend an event where I could not legally carry. Particularly an event where everyone is searched and/or patted down.

American Airlines Center in Dallas is owned by the city of Dallas. Regardless, at Promise Keepers they were using metal detectors and refused entry to persons carrying handguns. I went anyway, unarmed.

Great post, can't agree more. Just because I can't carry somewhere, doesn't mean I won't go. A firearm is just a tool, and this particular principle of the ordeal is not enough for me to miss out.

Case and point - the gun show yesterday. I should be able to carry there, for more reasons than I care to list. However, the gun stayed in the truck as I enjoyed an afternoon of good company and browsing.

I am not tied that tight to my weppon either.

[cxm]

I think a letter to the Dallas City Attorney is in order with a copy to the Director of the Museum.

Point out the law with respect to their actions and ask that the museum follow the law in the future.

That approach worked pretty well with the State Fair... it probably will work with the museum too.

It is important to attack such violations, though in a legal manner and in a polite professional manner.

FWIW

Chuck

[JohnKSa]

I think for the purpose of 30-06 a person leasing or renting the property is still the owner. E.g. if I were to lease a building from the city and open a business, I could post 30-06 signs that would be legally enforceable. The business and the facility are mine for all practical and legal purposes as long as I don't violate the lease contract.

[nitrogen]

I think for the purpose of 30-06 a person leasing or renting the property is still the owner. E.g. if I were to lease a building from the city and open a business, I could post 30-06 signs that would be legally enforceable. The business and the facility are mine for all practical and legal purposes as long as I don't violate the lease contract.

Actually, I think someone said exactly the opposite (and it might have been in here somewhere)
that the leasee cannot impose restrictions that the owner could not have.

[kauboy]

I think for the purpose of 30-06 a person leasing or renting the property is still the owner. E.g. if I were to lease a building from the city and open a business, I could post 30-06 signs that would be legally enforceable. The business and the facility are mine for all practical and legal purposes as long as I don't violate the lease contract.

You would be leasing from a landowner/landlord, so no, the land would not be yours. Your just paying to borrow it for a while.

Also, I contacted the Kimbell Art Museum here in Ft. Worth and was informed that they cannot allow anyone except Officers to carry inside the facility. She cited the reason was because they sold alcohol. I informed her that in order to restrict a CHL carrier for that reason, the business must derive 51% or more from alcohol sales. She responded kindly and told me that because of the bar, gallery openings, dinners, "mixers", and other events that serve/sell alcohol, that this actually was the case with their facility. She was very polite to point out that they do not "choose to not allow concealed weapons just for the heck of it", but that it was due to the law. She was even so informed as to know which law in the Penal Code actually deals with the issue. I personally believe she is telling the truth. I will still visit their facility from time to time and will just lock it up in the car.

I also tried to contact the relations people at the the Carter art museum as well as The Modern art museum, but have yet to receive a response, even though I know they have read the emails. (I love receipts.)

UPDATE:
I received a response from the Security Manager at The Modern.

As a private institution, we do not allow concealed handguns into our building. The only exception of course, is for law enforcement personnel. The Modern has daily art classes, tours and other art activities for educational purposes for children as well as adults and we do not feel that firearms inside our building are appropriate. We try to ensure a safe environment for our visitors and our staff. While we respect your right to defend yourself from a dangerous world we ask that your respect our right not to have firearms in our building. We also respect your right not to visit institutions that have such policies.

Thank you for your inquiry,
David McMillan
Security Manager
Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth

I politely told him that I would not be returning there. Pitty, it was a pretty nice place.

[Braden]

At least he was civil in his response and recognized that their decision to not allow firearms may cost them business.

[txinvestigator]

I think for the purpose of 30-06 a person leasing or renting the property is still the owner. E.g. if I were to lease a building from the city and open a business, I could post 30-06 signs that would be legally enforceable. The business and the facility are mine for all practical and legal purposes as long as I don't violate the lease contract.

You would be leasing from a landowner/landlord, so no, the land would not be yours. Your just paying to borrow it for a while.

Also, I contacted the Kimbell Art Museum here in Ft. Worth and was informed that they cannot allow anyone except Officers to carry inside the facility. She cited the reason was because they sold alcohol. I informed her that in order to restrict a CHL carrier for that reason, the business must derive 51% or more from alcohol sales. She responded kindly and told me that because of the bar, gallery openings, dinners, "mixers", and other events that serve/sell alcohol, that this actually was the case with their facility. She was very polite to point out that they do not "choose to not allow concealed weapons just for the heck of it", but that it was due to the law. She was even so informed as to know which law in the Penal Code actually deals with the issue. I personally believe she is telling the truth. I will still visit their facility from time to time and will just lock it up in the car.

I also tried to contact the relations people at the the Carter art museum as well as The Modern art museum, but have yet to receive a response, even though I know they have read the emails. (I love receipts.)

UPDATE:
I received a response from the Security Manager at The Modern.

As a private institution, we do not allow concealed handguns into our building. The only exception of course, is for law enforcement personnel. The Modern has daily art classes, tours and other art activities for educational purposes for children as well as adults and we do not feel that firearms inside our building are appropriate. We try to ensure a safe environment for our visitors and our staff. While we respect your right to defend yourself from a dangerous world we ask that your respect our right not to have firearms in our building. We also respect your right not to visit institutions that have such policies.

Thank you for your inquiry,
David McMillan
Security Manager
Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth

I politely told him that I would not be returning there. Pitty, it was a pretty nice place.

Do they simply post the sign, or do the actively try to keep all weapons out?

[kauboy]

He didn't say, and I didn't ask.

If you care to find out for us, that'd be great, but I'm not wasting my time with them.

[txinvestigator]

He didn't say, and I didn't ask.

If you care to find out for us, that'd be great, but I'm not wasting my time with them.

You told him you would not return, so I imagined you had been there.

If they search, wand or metal detect everyone, then it would be a pretty sterile place.

[kauboy]

Oh I had been there, but that was years ago. As best I can recall, they didn't have any metal detectors and no searches, but I was too young to look for a sign. I have no idea what they might be doing now.

[Commander]

Did you point out to him that the only firearms he was restricting were those being legally carried? He can restrict all he wants and not keep illegally carried firearms out. I don't understand the rationale behind that. Do really they think the bad guys will obey their signs? or do they even consider that?

[comsec]

I went to both on Sunday and entered the Kimball on the upstairs glass doors facing to the west toward the Amon Carter and there were no signs visible.

I went to the Amon Carter later and there was a gun busters sign with "no firearms on these premises" on the eastern entrance.

Discrete carry would pass as I was not searched at either facility nor given verbal warning.

Dallas has "whacker" type guards at DMA, Ft. Worth guards have been to finishing school.

If Amon Carter is listening, he'd probably laugh as he always took a sack lunch to Dallas so he would not spend any money there while on business!


Ø comsec Ø

[maximus2161]

I can see where it is sometimes prudent to do pat downs or bag checks. But going to a museum just doesnt work for me. I would have refused to be searched and just left.