Need Help With A Scenerio...

[Mithras61]

2. Doing nothing is hearing & saying I don't want to get involved & turning the TV up. When you a)call the Law immediately, b)listen & watch carefully c)take good notes, you have done an even better thing for her in the long run than just stopping the fight. You are a witness that will put him in jail for a long time IF--IF--IF she choses to prosecute him & get out of the abusive relationship. If you stop the fight & she decides to stay or decides to "DECIDE LATER" (how many times have I heard that one.) You have made a bad enemy w/ him & mabe her.
As time goes on he WILL convince her that you are the BG in this mess & "the beatings are your fault for messing in their business". (If the abusers say it about the preacher, they will say it about the Christian across the street.)

Your heart shows in your care.
LT

Doesn't the State reserve the right to prosecute even if the abused refuses to press charges? I seem to recall seeing this change in the law recently because of the high incidence of abused refusing to press charges against abuser & later ending up in the morgue...

[longtooth]

What about in public.
In public is whole different ball of wax than in THEIR HOUSE.
In public DDs are still terrible to get involved in as a 3rd party.

1. When it turns to sexual assauly & murder, again far different than a "good whoopin" as he would say. Juries see these differently too. Lawyer will not be able to do near as much w/ public sexual assalt as arguing & hitting in their house.

2. When to intervene? Don't have an answer.

3. Bottom line is take all your training, everything you know, the facts you see, & do what you think is best at the time. When you have done that you should be able to live w/ it & not 2nd guess self.

4. Time for me to head for 10:00 appointment.

[Patriot]

Thanks longtooth! Don't be late.

Man O man... the responsibliity of knowing what the "right" thing to do in a split-second decision is HUGE!! Am I the only one that feels overwhelmed at times? Whew!

[Lucky45]

Mithras61 wrote:
Doesn't the State reserve the right to prosecute even if the abused refuses to press charges? I seem to recall seeing this change in the law recently because of the high incidence of abused refusing to press charges against abuser & later ending up in the morgue

A friend of mine in the legal field told me now that it stays on your record so it doesn't get exponged anymore. And I know a guy who has been trying to get a job for the last year and that domestic charge is what is haunting him because it shows up on background check. It shows that he was arrested for it but he wasn't charged by wife.



Next

This forum is real good at gettring things straight in your mind about CHL. And one of the things I have come to the conclusion of, is the REAL REASON why I got a CHL. These discussions help.
It goes back to what Patriot has been asking about what you would do in public when certain scenarios. I am of the opinion that the reason that I have is for the protection of myself, my wife and immediate family. from imminent danger from loss of life from deadly force.
Those people, Mr and Mrs. Joe Blow, in the public that choose to have the local law enforcement be their protection is perfectly acceptable. If I see something happening, yes your conscience might act up, but common sense is a greater force for me. I am not trying to be the Lone Ranger and ride in on a white horse or be Captain Save-Them-Though and put on my cape. That is what local LEO are for. If some in here wanted to be involved in that scenario, they should have the other license as a LEO which has a greater jurisdiction. My jurisdiction with a CHL is the 20 yards radius around me. Anyone outside of that is the local PD's problem. So I would be very careful when dealing with deadly force outside of your jurisdiction because it will affect your FREEDOM.

[seamusTX]

Am I the only one that feels overwhelmed at times?

Of course not.

It's the guy who thinks he knows all the answers and comes in like gangbusters that is going to suffer the consequences.

On the threat of force: The messages have gotten too complicated to quote (or I'm too lazy).

Charles Cotton talked about this at the TexasCHLForum day at PSC. The law does allow you to threaten force, but it can also be twisted around to prosecute you if you threaten to use a weapon when deadly force is not justified. Someone was prosecuted for this in Texas and lost on appeal (which is a Very Bad Thing). Look here.

Therefore, if I understood his advice correctly, it is risky to display or threaten to use a weapon (other than on your own property) when deadly force is not justified.

- Jim

[Lucky45]

**

In Section PC 9.32, DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON, Part 3 (B) states, "to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery."
How EXACTLY would one know what the perp's intent was without saying, "Excuse me Mr. Perp, what are your intentions here?" Which is obviously rediculous. He might have killed the girl... we don't know. Therefore, would one not be 'justified' to intervene in my scenerio?

I think YES you have to ask questions. First ask the victim is they need your HELP. Define help by yourself. But things can spiral out of control if you don't know exactly what is going on. Especially in PUBLIC.
You might see a guy snatch a lady purse out of her hand and walking away rummaging through it. Unless you ask her if she needs help.
1. You would know that he is her significant other.
2. He bought that GUCCI purse one month ago with his credit card.
3. He is looking for the credit card where he is the primary account holder and she was at the mall running up his limit.

Without proper training like we are discussing now, you would see a BAD GUY grab a lady's purse, FLEEING and trying to STEAL her money while she is SCREAMING at the top of her lungs.

Always ask questions first. Number one should be should I get involve with this. Then ask it AGAIN when you think about pulling a gun and using FORCE or DEADLY FORCE.


P.S. I always remember that song.

"Freedom isn't free,
It costs a hefty......fee."


Moral of the story, "FREEDOM costs a buck O five."

[Patriot]

Jim,

Thanks for the thread link. Confusing, eh? Why does the state (any state for that matter) insist on using legal mumbo-jumbo instead of everyday plain English? I know... it's their out... right?

Lucky...

Those people, Mr and Mrs. Joe Blow, in the public that choose to have the local law enforcement be their protection is perfectly acceptable. If I see something happening, yes your conscience might act up, but common sense is a greater force for me. I am not trying to be the Lone Ranger and ride in on a white horse or be Captain Save-Them-Though and put on my cape. That is what local LEO are for. If some in here wanted to be involved in that scenario, they should have the other license as a LEO which has a greater jurisdiction. My jurisdiction with a CHL is the 20 yards radius around me. Anyone outside of that is the local PD's problem. So I would be very careful when dealing with deadly force outside of your jurisdiction because it will affect your FREEDOM.

I appreciate that. But I am hoping you are not insinuating that those that DO get involved in the protection of others (within the law and within or beyond the 20 yards), other than LEO's, are Lone Rangers? I personally would hope that I never have to intervene, but I still say I would if it meant defending those that were incapable of defending themselves at that moment. Like I said earlier... what a quandary!

ADDED: Yes Lucky... hopefully all of us with CHL's have the common sense to always ask and not assume. But then again.... that's an assumption!!!

[seamusTX]

Why does the state (any state for that matter) insist on using legal mumbo-jumbo instead of everyday plain English?

Lawmakers often don't do their job very well, and we let them get away with it.

On another level, they update the law incrementally, adding bits and pieces here and there without considering contradictions in other parts of the law. That has been going on for over a century now.

I will say in their defense that the state legislature is part-time, and most representatives have to work at regular jobs because their pay is barely a token. Their staff budgets, time, and personnel are also limited.

It's worse at the federal level. I rarely even look at federal bills or laws, because they often literally make no sense to a non-lawyer.

However, the alternatives are worse (mainly dictatorship).

- Jim

[txinvestigator]

as a person who has been to more domestics than I can count, let me say this;

Breaking into someone's home because you hear screaming is not a good idea. The fact is, you don't know what is taking place inside.

In domestic situations, it is unlikely you would be observing the first incident. While we are repulsed by the idea of someone being beaten, it is likely it has happened before, and more likely it will happen again. Intervention on the part of a non-LEO can have very bad consequences for the person.

The family, including the victim, can and most likely will turn on you. The victim may decided that your intervention will cause her future beatings (that is usually correct) and decide to not be very appreciative of your assistance. She might then be a participant in attempts to prosecute you for Burglary, criminal mischief, assault, and who knows what else.

[Patriot]

txinvestigator...

Thanks for what you do/have done! The bringers of the Word and the protectors of the law... well... you know the rest I'm sure.

What about my other question then? The same scenerio in public? What is your professional advise there? And any other pertinent advise is more than welcomed too!

[Patriot]

Jim,

I agree whole-heartedly! It's a crying shame too. But, like I said ... I think it's their 'out' when the chips are down.

[RPBrown]

As many of you know, my son in law is LEO. He has on many occassions gone to a DD and had the woman turn on him after he had handcuffed the male. EVEN IN PUBLIC.

I would not do any more than observe the situation unless I was certain that it was a life threatening situation. As stated above, it could and in most cases would cause you more trouble than the person causing the problem.

Now if it was in public and was a life threatning situation, I would (or at least hope I would) get involved.

[Popshot]

Although this does not answer the legal issues, a few things come to mind with this scenario:

Most of the time, we cannot stop people from doing bad things. Otherwise, few would be fired from their jobs and the jails would be nearly empty.

The first rule of rescue is do not make yourself a victim. This can easily happen, but is especially true in a domestic disturbance. These are very irrational encounters.

It reminds me of the prayer (I hope I get it right):
Let me have the knowledge to know what I can and cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference between the two.

[Lucky45]

Popshot:

It reminds me of the prayer (I hope I get it right):
Let me have the knowledge to know what I can and cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference between the two.

Here it is

The Serenity Prayer. I use this at work all the time.

God grant me the serenity to
Accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time:
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking as He did, this World as it is,
Not as I would have it

[Patriot]

RPBrown and Popshot...

I totally agree. Thanks for the input. I suppose then, I have concluded that...

1) If the DD is in a house.... call 911, look, listen and note all things.
2) If the DD is in public.... call 911, look, listen, notice what escalates and intervene (I too hope I would RPBrown) if the threat of life becomes quite evident.
3) PRAY THAT IT NEVER HAPPENS!!! And if it does, let's hope our guardian is with us!


Lucky...

Thanks for posting that Serenity Prayer... an all-time fav!