Need Help With A Scenerio...

[Patriot]

Hey All!

OK... I will try to make this brief. Here's a scenerio that happened across the street from me just last week while I was gone on the road. I will lay out the story then what I think I would have done if I was here. Please state if I am wrong, right or had other (more appropriate) actions. OK?

There is a young 20-something girl, her boyfriend, her sister and her husband that live across the street. Late one night, about 1am, the 20-something's boyfriend started beating up on her! She was evidently screaming so loud that her next door neighbor, a single 50-something lady, came over to see what was going on. The brother-in-law told me that by the time they got to the living room, the boyfriend had hit her in the face at least twice, punched her in the stomach and was kicking her when he walked in. He yelled at the guy and he split. The brother-in-law called the cops, found the guy, arrested him and he is still in jail awaiting trial. The girlfriend has a restraining order on him now too. She was pretty beat up, I saw her this weekend. The poor girl has a disability with one of her legs too to beat all and this incident didn't help matters.

IF I was here, I feel as if I would have --- NO, I would have --- gotten involved. I would have knocked on the door at the same time of trying to enter. Here's where it gets tricky in my mind...

NOTE: These are not in any particular order...

A) Could I have had my gun drawn at that moment knowing that something terrible was going on or not?
B) Am I allowed in their house either by permission or entering covertly?
C) Since it was assault, was I justified in the "Law's" eyes IF I would have had to use deadly force? Or, would pepper spray been a better weapon? Personally, having dealt with rages before, I don't think pepper spray would have stopped him.
D) How would I have handled this if I entered while he was beating her? Would I order him to stop, back off, drop to his knees with his hands on top his head --- OR --- get to an obvious spot in his vision so that he could see that my .40 cal was pointing at his head? (I added this--knowing about collateral damage, & third-party injury what suggestions would you all have here about this too).
And finally.....
E) If he would have followed my orders, would I keep him at gunpoint until the police arrived?

If you can help in this scenerio, I would sure appreciate it. PLUS... she is afraid that when he gets out (IF he does), then he will be back for a little payback.

Thanks in advance!!

[Lucky45]

Here is a couple of my suggestions.


1) The first thing I would do is simple and ALL you are required to do. PC §9.21. PUBLIC DUTY. Broken down in plain english it means to CALL THE POLICE if you see/hear a crime in progress, don't get involved unless you meet certain specifications in the statute.


To me, that is the straight answer to your question.


Next, I would like to address something you said.

IF I was here, I feel as if I would have --- NO, I would have --- gotten involved. I would have knocked on the door at the same time of trying to enter.

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think entering someone's residence without permission and by using force is called BREAKING AND ENTERING / BURGLARY.

[DustinB]

PC §9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in
using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:
(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes
them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in
using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force
or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the
third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

I would imagine she would need to be screaming for help and you had to feel the immediate need to protect her. If someone is screaming for help I seriously doubt anyone would object.

Now as for pulling your gun, the use of deadly force must be justified before showing it. I'm not real sure if this would fall into protecting a 3rd person's property.

[Lucky45]

Patriot wrote:
Here's where it gets tricky in my mind...
C) Since it was assault, was I justified in the "Law's" eyes IF I would have had to use deadly force? Or, would pepper spray been a better weapon? Personally, having dealt with rages before, I don't think pepper spray would have stopped him.
D) How would I have handled this if I entered while he was beating her? Would I order him to stop, back off, drop to his knees with his hands on top his head --- OR --- get to an obvious spot in his vision so that he could see that my .40 cal was pointing at his head? (I added this--knowing about collateral damage, & third-party injury what suggestions would you all have here about this too).
And finally.....
E) If he would have followed my orders, would I keep him at gunpoint until the police arrived?

I think this is part of your answer.

PC §9.51.
(b) A person other than a peace officer (or one acting at his direction)is justified in using force against another when and to the degree
the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
make or assist in making a lawful arrest, or to prevent or assist in
preventing escape after lawful arrest if, before using force, the actor
manifests his purpose to and the reason for the arrest or reasonably
believes his purpose and the reason are already known by or cannot
reasonably be made known to the person to be arrested.

(d) A person other than a peace officer acting in a peace officer's
presence and at his direction is justified in using deadly force against
another when and to the degree the person reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary to make a lawful arrest, or to
prevent escape after a lawful arrest, if the use of force would have
been justified under Subsection (b) and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the felony or offense against the
public peace for which arrest is authorized included the use or attempted
use of deadly force; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes there is a substantial risk that
the person to be arrested will cause death or serious bodily injury to
another if the arrest is delayed.

(g) Deadly force may only be used under the circumstances
enumerated in Subsections (c) and (d).

[Patriot]

**It's an obvious given that the police (911) would have been called immediately and even before my intervention to inform them what was happening and what I intended to do. I should have made that clear though I suppose. Sorry...**

Thanks for the replies! However, it sounds to me like no one knows for sure what I could/should do in this scenerio. There seems to be so much gray area in all these codes that it takes a lawyer to determine what they really state! Here's my 'hiccup' with the penal codes:

In Section PC 9.32, DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON, Part 3 (B) states, "to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery."
How EXACTLY would one know what the perp's intent was without saying, "Excuse me Mr. Perp, what are your intentions here?" Which is obviously rediculous. He might have killed the girl... we don't know. Therefore, would one not be 'justified' to intervene in my scenerio?

And...
PC 9.33, DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON, especially section (2): deadly force justified if...
"the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person".
Again... if a man (which is really NO man) is beating a woman, we can only call the cops? Are you serious? If so... I think something is wrong there... seriously wrong.

Well, let's see what else we can get from those out there that know the law and have dealt with this type of situation. Thanks again for all the input and let's keep it going. This is important to me, and I know to the girl next door.

[seamusTX]

I don't have an answer for you, just some "data points" and questions.

Police officers dislike domestic disputes more than any other type of incident. The victim or other family members often turn against the police.

Is it worth your life to protect that woman?

If you interfere in a domestic dispute in your neighborhood, you will have made a lifelong enemy (the abuser) and possibly his entire family.

Do you want to spend the rest of your days and nights watching for them?

- Jim

[Patriot]

I don't have an answer for you, just some "data points" and questions.

Police officers dislike domestic disputes more than any other type of incident. The victim or other family members often turn against the police.

Is it worth your life to protect that woman?

If you interfere in a domestic dispute in your neighborhood, you will have made a lifelong enemy (the abuser) and possibly his entire family.

Do you want to spend the rest of your days and nights watching for them?

- Jim

WOW! What a thought-provoking question Jim. Thank you for posing it.

The only way I know to answer it is this...
I have called the cops before for domestic disturbances, but have never had to face it one-on-one. I guess I would have to answer your question this way... As the Bible states, 'there's no greater love than to lay your life down for another.' My quandary then would be, would I be able to live with myself for doing nothing? Is my life more valuable than hers? Is my safety more important than hers? Then the reverse... what about my families' safety? What about their lives if the perp is revengeful? So I guess it would all boil down to faith for me Jim. Would I do the "right thing" and simply trust God to protect me and mine? Answer... I hope so.

Thanks again for this question. It made me think.

[longtooth]

seamusTX, you are correct, Correct, CORRECT. 37 ys in the ministry & I have done more of those than I want to. At the home, in the ER, called while they are going on, been threatened in their home, in my home, in the church. These places as fast as I can type & if I stop to think there are probably more.
Uninvited to start with: you are way better off calling LE & listening. You are probably on the bad list for that but will really be for coming in.

I have told several that were having problems that I must be invited by both. If the wife wants some help & he says no, then it is time to call the law maam. If both do not want me there then I am not going to be able to help anyway. It amazes me how many women will call the preacher "because he wont hit me while you are here" but wont call the Law "because I love him."

Everyone knows by my signature that I am 24-7 carry. That is at the church, in my house, & in public where legal. I do everything I can to not go to their house but get them to come to mine first & the church 2nd.
If I do go to the house of conflict, that is one of the few places I leave my gun in the truck. (reasons are many & long, another thread.)

Bottom line patriot, w/o training & responsibility for them, call the Law & stay out of the house.

[Lucky45]

Patriot wrote:
In Section PC 9.32, DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON, Part 3 (B) states, "to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery."
How EXACTLY would one know what the perp's intent was without saying, "Excuse me Mr. Perp, what are your intentions here?" Which is obviously rediculous. He might have killed the girl... we don't know. Therefore, would one not be 'justified' to intervene in my scenerio?

That is true but did you notice it DID NOT say ASSAULT OR AGGRAVATED ASSAULT

Patriot wrote:
The only way I know to answer it is this...
I have called the cops before for domestic disturbances, but have never had to face it one-on-one. I guess I would have to answer your question this way... As the Bible states, 'there's no greater love than to lay your life down for another.'

I know that everyone has emotions about stuff going on around but ALSO remember WWSTS, WHAT WOULD THE STATE OF TEXAS SAY?

[seamusTX]

... As the Bible states, 'there's no greater love than to lay your life down for another.' My quandary then would be, would I be able to live with myself for doing nothing? Is my life more valuable than hers? ... Then the reverse... what about my families' safety? What about their lives if the perp is revengeful?

You're welcome.

I'm not a preacher but I try to follow Christ's example: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13 KJV). This saying was a premonition of His death on the cross.

Most of us, without question, would risk our life to save an innocent person. The problem with domestic disputes, as longtooth says from his first-hand experience, is that the victim (nearly always a woman) is not willing to get out of the situation permanently.

In the worst case, someone who intervenes could end up dead, and the abusive situation could go on for years.

We can depend upon the Lord to look out for us, but one of the tools that he gave us for our survival is good judgment.

It's a difficult decision to make, in any case.

- Jim

[Patriot]

Again... thought-provoking.

Lucky... yes, I did notice that and that was at the heart of the question. Which leads me to this...

longtooth, thanks for all you do for the ministry! But as you know (better than most) a counseling situation is much different of course than a case of neighborly intervention. So, this leads me to another thought...
What about the same exact scenerio in public? Would it be OK to just call the police and stand by and listen? If so, when would it be 'right' to intervene? When it turns to sexual assault? Murder? When?

ADDED: Jim... thanks again!

The problem with domestic disputes, as longtooth says from his first-hand experience, is that the victim (nearly always a woman) is not willing to get out of the situation permanently.

My intervention question would then be... are we to know this while the perp is beating her? Are we to assume that this is the case in her situation? Or are we to step in and stop the abuse, the crime? It is a dilemma for sure!

[longtooth]

patriot wrote.
As the Bible states, 'there's no greater love than to lay your life down for another.' My quandary then would be, would I be able to live with myself for doing nothing? Is my life more valuable than hers? Is my safety more important than hers? Then the reverse... what about my families' safety? What about their lives if the perp is revengeful? So I guess it would all boil down to faith for me Jim. Would I do the "right thing" and simply trust God to protect me and mine? Answer... I hope so.

More thoughts & I hope some answers for you.
1. Correct. Your life is no more valuable than hers. Your responsibility to your family is manifold times more than your responsibility to her.

2. Doing nothing is hearing & saying I don't want to get involved & turning the TV up. When you a)call the Law immediately, b)listen & watch carefully c)take good notes, you have done an even better thing for her in the long run than just stopping the fight. You are a witness that will put him in jail for a long time IF--IF--IF she choses to prosecute him & get out of the abusive relationship. If you stop the fight & she decides to stay or decides to "DECIDE LATER" (how many times have I heard that one.) You have made a bad enemy w/ him & mabe her.
As time goes on he WILL convince her that you are the BG in this mess & "the beatings are your fault for messing in their business". (If the abusers say it about the preacher, they will say it about the Christian across the street.)

3. I commend you on your Bible knowledge but want you to see something. John 15:13-14. You need both verses. 13 say Jesus laid down his life for his friends, not just "another" & he is talking to his disciples. 14 is the defination of a friend. If you do what I command you.
If she does not receive the help you "offer" & get out of the abuse (your command) then neither one of them are your friend & do not deserve your life being indangered. Your family deserves your presence. You are not responsible for her safety. You can't keep people safe that do not want to be safe. She will continue to bring it on herself just the same as one who broke in your house brought it on themself.

4. Read again #2 here.

Your heart shows in your care.
LT

[seamusTX]

What about the same exact scenerio in public? Would it be OK to just call the police and stand by and listen? If so, when would it be 'right' to intervene? When it turns to sexual assault? Murder? When?

Witnessing an incident in public is very different from entering a residence. Inside a residence, you have unknown other parties and availability of weapons (not just firearms but fireplace pokers, etc.).

You would be legally in the clear if you called the police and stood by, and few people would blame you for not doing more.

You can legally use force, but not deadly force, to protect third parties from assault. If the perpetrator turns on you, you may then be justified in threatening or using deadly force. But it's playing with fire

If the assault starts to look like attempted murder, you are also justified in using deadly force; but again this is a tough judgment call. People have been killed with fists alone or having their head slammed into something.

The problem with domestic disputes ... is that the victim (nearly always a woman) is not willing to get out of the situation permanently.

My intervention question would then be... are we to know this while the perp is beating her?

You can't ever know for sure, but you can have a reasonable degree of confidence.

Men do not suddenly start beating up their wives or girlfriends. The abuse starts with verbal degradation, then escalates through a scale with pushing, slapping, and so forth, until it gets to outright beating and use of weapons. (You can read a million accounts of this on the Internet.)

Therefore, by the time you witness a beating, it is probably a long-standing codependent relationship.

I know this sounds callous, but I've wasted enough time in my own life trying to help people who didn't really want to solve their own problems.

- Jim

[Patriot]

God bless you LT! Thanks for the compliments, even though they are undeserved. I did not mean to take those verses out of context.. I know better than that. I was only paraphrasing them to make a point. And, without a "friend" like Jesus... what would we have and what example would we have for what a TRUE friend is?

If you would be so kind... would you delve into this question I posed? I am interested in your answer.

I said earlier...
"What about the same exact scenerio in public? Would it be OK to just call the police and stand by and listen? If so, when would it be 'right' to intervene? When it turns to sexual assault? Murder? When?"

Thanks again to all!

ADDED: Thanks Jim.... your wisdom shows through. I appreciate your responses.
Russell...
Do me a favor... maybe it's just that I am sick at home right now, or that I am plum stupid, but this is what I meant earlier by the wording of the penal codes being enough to drive a lawyer nuts. Here's what you posted...

According to the law:
Quote:

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force
is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by
the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose
is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly
force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Put this is simple English if you would!
It sure would help me out at this point. Thanks!