At what point are you deterred from carrying past...

[wgoforth]

I will turn around at a gunbusters sign. I don't discourage anyone from following the letter of the law, but my personal choice is to not enter. I am a business owner and I will respect the wishes of the business I am entering. If they don't want me there, then so be it, I will take my money elsewhere. I choose not to support those businesses and would rather patronize businesses who don't try and infringe upon my rights.

certainly your perogative and your right to so do.... but even if nearly every business in town had such? I couldn't go to many places if a gunbuster deterred me in Brownwood.

Many many years ago I hunted at a place near Brownwood. When did they become anti-gun out there?

I was told by a city official that several years ago, some teen got a gun and was on his way to get his probation officer. After that, signs went up...although not proper 30.06 ones. Of course it was illegal for the kid to have one anyway and he was on his way to do something illegal and a sign wouldn't have stopped them, so go figure.

[karder]

I will turn around at a gunbusters sign. I don't discourage anyone from following the letter of the law, but my personal choice is to not enter. I am a business owner and I will respect the wishes of the business I am entering. If they don't want me there, then so be it, I will take my money elsewhere. I choose not to support those businesses and would rather patronize businesses who don't try and infringe upon my rights.

Then how do you get gas? Every gas station that I go to has a gun busters sign on the door.

Honestly, I have never seen a gunbuster sign at any of the gas stations I use. I always use pay at the pump, so maybe it is because I don't go in the store. I am not being critical of those who chose to carry in spite of the signs. I understand 03Lightningrocks point about the signs being there to appease the masses. I find that there are a lot of business who don't have those signs or have the unlicensed possession sign only, at least in my neck of the woods. I just choose to go to those. I have never disarmed and then gone into a gunbuster business, but I have turned around and gone to a competitor across the street who did not have a sign. I'm not saying it is the best way, just the way I do things. I tend to shop a lot via internet so I don't deal with the crowds, so I probably just don't get out very much!

[ScottDLS]

So far, I haven't SEEN a "close to" PC30.06 sign - they've either been fully compliant (as far as I could tell) or obviously NON-compliant, like typewritten on a half-sheet of notebook paper.

If I saw a sign that was correct except for something like a missing comma or letters that are 0.005" too short, I'd avoid entering.

Plano Independent School District has every school parking lot posted with "close" signs. Contact with PISD indicates that they do not intend to replace them with compliant signs and anyone caught beyond the signs will be prosecuted, changes in the law making government property "unpostable" and improper signage notwithstanding. According to those that I have spoken to, the school district's attorneys feel that they are properly posted. The on campus LEOs also say they WILL arrest under the authority of the signs.

So what do these legal eagles from PISD say will be the charge? And the on campus LEO's...what will be their explanation to the Collin County prosecutor and judge for arresting you?

My $0.02, they're bluffing. They want to scare people into not carrying when they know darn well they can't do anything about it...because it's not illegal.

The charge will be trespass by a CHL.

Since you were not a party to the conversations, I doubt you are really in a position to make such a judgment. It was in the same time frame that I called DPS about the out of compliance signs and was informed that they considered close to compliance to be good enough, and they would be the ones to determine close enough. But you are welcome to come call their bluff any time you want to be the test case.

Look I'm not trying to antagonize you. I think this is a worthy public discussion for this board. At least you have made the effort to contact officials, hear what they have to say, present our side of the story, and try to correct them.

Now I'm going to break down my point of view.

The charge will be trespass by a CHL.

The 30.06 charge is completely unsupported by the law. They might as well say the charge is murder. The 30.06 section is not applicable. See 30.06 law cite below.

I guess the perfect storm of cop with an attitude, liberal DA, and anti-gun judge could support the murder charge for carrying in the school parking lot. But then we're just being nihilists and the law doesn't mean anything, everything is random, and chaos rules. That's not a facts based argument.


I'm only in a position to make a "judgment" on what you have shared so far of your conversations. But unless you've got some amazing legal revelation that PISD lawyers or DPS shared, I haven't yet heard logic to convince me otherwise.

I don't live in PISD territory, but stop asking me if I want to be the test case. I live in the Lewisville ISD in Texas. I am the test case. I go to LISD pick up line regularly to pick up my daughter from elementary school and I carry a 9mm handgun in my car in the parking lot. I have been for three years. It doesn't worry me in the slightest. They don't have signs on the parking lot, but that's irrelevant since 30.06 doesn't apply either way.

I carry at the non-secure area of the DFW airport and in the parking lot.

I carry in movie theaters where I can't see any signs because they are too small to read.

I open carry in my house and on the firing line at the DFW Gun Range in Dallas.

Sometimes I drive 43mph in a 45mph zone. I don't worry about being arrested for any of this, because it's not against the law. But if I am arrested, I'll spend a few bucks to prove myself right.

You seem to be looking for someone in authority or a law to tell you what IS OK. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of criminal law. That which is not prohibited is allowed. You, the DPS, the PISD lawyers, haven't explained how any of these actions are prohibited. I'm standing by.

Do you carry anywhere with your CHL? If so aren't you worried that an anti-gun DA or cop will have you "cuffed and stuffed" for 46.02 UCW. I mean it's not applicable per 46.15 since you have your CHL, but aren't you worried about a cop who isn't familiar with CHL. Are you willing to be the test case for CHL and "take the ride".

-Scott

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN, (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter
411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent;
...

(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property
on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

[5thGenTexan]

Gunbuster sign = business trying to make gunphobes feel better but unintentionally putting their clients at risk of banger that figures it's a safe zone for them. I carry past it because I legally can and I have yet to have anyone pick up on the fact that I am carrying. One of my banks has one when I took one of the kids to add as a signatory on the account just in case, he used his CHL as secondary ID without a blink from the manager that I deal with.

Fully compliant 30.06, 51%, Federal Bldgs. all no go for the weapon. I'm not going to spend the night in jail.

Semi-compliant signage I take my business elsewhere unless there is no choice, then depending on the situation I'll maintain stealth mode depending on how close to compliant. Is it 1/4" high letters white on clear glass below my knee in English only two feet right of the door? Chance it because I most likely didn't see it the first 10 times I passed it. Or is it properly worded English and Spanish 3/4" at eye level right at the door, that is close enough to send me to another store or a trip to the car or hold the wifes purse and Ruger just outside the door while she runs in with the plastic money.

[Dragonfighter]

I don't do business with properly posted 30.06 enterprises and I don't drink...so it is not hard for me generally. What does irk me, and legality of the signs is another argument, when I see a 30.o6 sign, proper wording, apparently the right size posted on an exit I came out of but not where I went in or inside as is the case some places. I conceal well and I am not going back to my car after that.

[E150GT]

I try to obey the law. I have carried in a bar. I felt so guilty that I put it in my car about 25 minutes into the bar. I do look for 30.06 signs and If they are legal I will not go in, and I try not to patronize the places if I dont have to. I have a question though. What is worth more to you? Staying alive in a bad situation, or following the law??

[denwego]

What is worth more to you? Staying alive in a bad situation, or following the law??

Staying alive, that's for sure. Times like that, I think of the Wisconsin supreme court case from a few years ago which overturned the conviction of a pizza delivery man for carrying a concealed weapon (categorically illegal for a non-LEO there) after he used it to kill two habitual robbers: the court stated that it was a valid exercise of the state's police power to prohibit carrying a concealed weapon, but not at the expense of putting someone in the direct path of harm if it were under immediately threatened circumstances. We don't have a parallel precedent here in Texas, but the law operates in the same way, and if I truly believed there were no way to avoid immediate harm, I would act with no regard for a law which might get me killed. And I know that's the sort of mentality which results in "get arrested, go to trial, get convicted, maybe get it overturned on appeal" situations, but everything is better than death on the bottom line. And I have never found myself in a situation even approaching that, thank God, so I can muse about it academically while following the law.

Carrying a concealed handgun in a movie theater posted with a 30.06... that's just breaking the law. Running across the grounds of a middle school with a rifle because I see a woman being raped on the far street and thereby causing 300 panicked children to flip out... that's the sort of time I hope 12 people would've done the same thing after the fact. And I hope that sort of situation never comes up anywhere in America in the first place!

[03Lightningrocks]

I try to obey the law. I have carried in a bar. I felt so guilty that I put it in my car about 25 minutes into the bar. I do look for 30.06 signs and If they are legal I will not go in, and I try not to patronize the places if I dont have to. I have a question though. What is worth more to you? Staying alive in a bad situation, or following the law??

It reminds me of an old saying, "It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six". I am not advocating anything here. I am just mentioning something I once heard.

[92f-fan]

Saw a 30.05 sign today
First one Ive seen - Made me pause
Other than in Farmers Branch, I wont say where it was so that no one is tempted to "help" the building fix the issue

[iratollah]

A CHL is almost like a certificate that one is a law abiding citizen, I doubt many CHL holders are interested in breaking the law and jeopardizing their RTC.

[jimlongley]

Look I'm not trying to antagonize you. I think this is a worthy public discussion for this board. At least you have made the effort to contact officials, hear what they have to say, present our side of the story, and try to correct them.

Now I'm going to break down my point of view.

The charge will be trespass by a CHL.

The 30.06 charge is completely unsupported by the law. They might as well say the charge is murder. The 30.06 section is not applicable. See 30.06 law cite below.

I guess the perfect storm of cop with an attitude, liberal DA, and anti-gun judge could support the murder charge for carrying in the school parking lot. But then we're just being nihilists and the law doesn't mean anything, everything is random, and chaos rules. That's not a facts based argument.

Your use of the murder argument seems antagonistic to me, but I will respond as if you seriously want to discuss, instead of being critical without knowing the whole story as in your posts until now. It would not require anything like a perfect storm to support the 30.06 charge, at least to uncomfortable levels for the unfortunate victim of the false arrest and imprisonment. Although you have quoted the law and your stand that it will be followed perfectly by law enforcement is admirable, it is also somewhat naive to expect them to follow your understanding, especially in light of the "cuffed and stuffed" thread where there was no CHL violation, but the victim was arrested anyway.

I'm only in a position to make a "judgment" on what you have shared so far of your conversations. But unless you've got some amazing legal revelation that PISD lawyers or DPS shared, I haven't yet heard logic to convince me otherwise.

So why pass judgment then? Why not ask for further information politely instead if just saying that it can't happen because you said so? I do have some more information, but not much. When the signs went up at PISD I noticed immediately because my wife is employed there. I went over to a nearby school and found several things, that the letters were not proper size, the wording was improper, and the signs were only visible in one direction if you happened to be entering the public parking lot. I called PISD administration and was informed that they are NOT a government entity, therefore the posting is valid, and that they have checked with DPS and have been told that the language is correct and the size is immaterial. I then called DPS and was informed by the lady lawyer that many of us have gotten the same answer from, that they consider a 30.06 even with improper language and wrong size letters, to be an effort at posting and they will enforce the idea, rather than the fact. According to them, PISD is free to have you arrested and they will support the prosecution.

I don't live in PISD territory, but stop asking me if I want to be the test case. I live in the Lewisville ISD in Texas. I am the test case.

And yet you claim not to be being antagonistic while suggesting that I do so father down. Sorry, the invitation still holds, you are welcome to come over to PISD and be a test case any time you want to, LISD is not posted, so you are right not to worry, but PISD is and I can just envision how much attention the cops will pay to your protestations that the law doesn't apply. But you are definitively NOT the test case you claim to be, you have never been arrested, that you have told us, or apparently even questioned about being on LISD property with your concealed handgun, the fact that there is no case, means there is no test.

I carry at the non-secure area of the DFW airport and in the parking lot.

And this is germain how?

I carry in movie theaters where I can't see any signs because they are too small to read.

So?

I open carry in my house and on the firing line at the DFW Gun Range in Dallas.

Even less meaningful.

Sometimes I drive 43mph in a 45mph zone. I don't worry about being arrested for any of this, because it's not against the law. But if I am arrested, I'll spend a few bucks to prove myself right.

So you are prepared to be a test case? I thought you didn't want to be.

You seem to be looking for someone in authority or a law to tell you what IS OK. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of criminal law. That which is not prohibited is allowed. You, the DPS, the PISD lawyers, haven't explained how any of these actions are prohibited. I'm standing by.

Covered above. Not looking for someone to tell me it's OK, just pointing out, as a comment, that PISD is posted with invalid 30.06 signage and they intend to prosecute, and DPS supports them.

Do you carry anywhere with your CHL? If so aren't you worried that an anti-gun DA or cop will have you "cuffed and stuffed" for 46.02 UCW. I mean it's not applicable per 46.15 since you have your CHL, but aren't you worried about a cop who isn't familiar with CHL.

Quite frankly, after the "cuffed and stuffed" thread, I will admit to some trepidation, but your argumentativeness doesn't encourage me to answer beyond that.

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN, (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter
411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent;
...

(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property
on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

[/quote]

[Dionadair]

I voted "Legal 30.06 or 51% sign and I'll turn back."

However, if there are other options available I will not give my business to a store that posts "gunbuster" signs. It's not really a matter of honoring their signs or wishes, it's taking my business elsewhere.

[whodat1]

I came across an interesting situation the other day while travelling through East Texas. I'm sure you've seen those convenience store that also have a food shop connected with them. They have separate entrances, but are one big building inside. The food place had a proper 30.06 sign and the store had a gun buster’s sign. I did go in armed, but I used the gun buster door and stayed in that section of the establishment. Just makes you wonder though.

[ScottDLS]

Look I'm not trying to antagonize you. I think this is a worthy public discussion for this board. At least you have made the effort to contact officials, hear what they have to say, present our side of the story, and try to correct them.

Now I'm going to break down my point of view.

The charge will be trespass by a CHL.

The 30.06 charge is completely unsupported by the law. They might as well say the charge is murder. The 30.06 section is not applicable. See 30.06 law cite below.

I guess the perfect storm of cop with an attitude, liberal DA, and anti-gun judge could support the murder charge for carrying in the school parking lot. But then we're just being nihilists and the law doesn't mean anything, everything is random, and chaos rules. That's not a facts based argument.

Your use of the murder argument seems antagonistic to me, but I will respond as if you seriously want to discuss, instead of being critical without knowing the whole story as in your posts until now. It would not require anything like a perfect storm to support the 30.06 charge, at least to uncomfortable levels for the unfortunate victim of the false arrest and imprisonment. Although you have quoted the law and your stand that it will be followed perfectly by law enforcement is admirable, it is also somewhat naive to expect them to follow your understanding, especially in light of the "cuffed and stuffed" thread where there was no CHL violation, but the victim was arrested anyway.

And the charges were almost immediately dropped because they were unsupported by the law. That was the point of my "murder" hyperbole.

I'm only in a position to make a "judgment" on what you have shared so far of your conversations. But unless you've got some amazing legal revelation that PISD lawyers or DPS shared, I haven't yet heard logic to convince me otherwise.

So why pass judgment then? Why not ask for further information politely instead if just saying that it can't happen because you said so? I do have some more information, but not much. When the signs went up at PISD I noticed immediately because my wife is employed there. I went over to a nearby school and found several things, that the letters were not proper size, the wording was improper, and the signs were only visible in one direction if you happened to be entering the public parking lot. I called PISD administration and was informed that they are NOT a government entity, therefore the posting is valid, and that they have checked with DPS and have been told that the language is correct and the size is immaterial. I then called DPS and was informed by the lady lawyer that many of us have gotten the same answer from, that they consider a 30.06 even with improper language and wrong size letters, to be an effort at posting and they will enforce the idea, rather than the fact. According to them, PISD is free to have you arrested and they will support the prosecution.

PISD is a government entity. They have taxing authority, they are constituted under the laws of the State, and the Trustees are elected. The DPS doesn't support prosecutions unless they were the arresting agency.

I don't live in PISD territory, but stop asking me if I want to be the test case. I live in the Lewisville ISD in Texas. I am the test case.

And yet you claim not to be being antagonistic while suggesting that I do so father down. Sorry, the invitation still holds, you are welcome to come over to PISD and be a test case any time you want to, LISD is not posted, so you are right not to worry, but PISD is and I can just envision how much attention the cops will pay to your protestations that the law doesn't apply. But you are definitively NOT the test case you claim to be, you have never been arrested, that you have told us, or apparently even questioned about being on LISD property with your concealed handgun, the fact that there is no case, means there is no test.

I carry at the non-secure area of the DFW airport and in the parking lot.

And this is germain how?

I carry in movie theaters where I can't see any signs because they are too small to read.

So?

I open carry in my house and on the firing line at the DFW Gun Range in Dallas.

Even less meaningful.

Sometimes I drive 43mph in a 45mph zone. I don't worry about being arrested for any of this, because it's not against the law. But if I am arrested, I'll spend a few bucks to prove myself right.

So you are prepared to be a test case? I thought you didn't want to be.

All examples of activities that are no more illegal than driving onto 30.06 posted government entity property. So why do you worry about PISD and not these examples?

You seem to be looking for someone in authority or a law to tell you what IS OK. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of criminal law. That which is not prohibited is allowed. You, the DPS, the PISD lawyers, haven't explained how any of these actions are prohibited. I'm standing by.

Covered above. Not looking for someone to tell me it's OK, just pointing out, as a comment, that PISD is posted with invalid 30.06 signage and they intend to prosecute, and DPS supports them.

I'm sure the other improperly posted government entities intend to prosecute, and in the unlikely event you're discovered, will undoubtedly fail (in their prosecution). DPS is irrelevant unless you somehow got arrested by a trooper.

Do you carry anywhere with your CHL? If so aren't you worried that an anti-gun DA or cop will have you "cuffed and stuffed" for 46.02 UCW. I mean it's not applicable per 46.15 since you have your CHL, but aren't you worried about a cop who isn't familiar with CHL.

Quite frankly, after the "cuffed and stuffed" thread, I will admit to some trepidation, but your argumentativeness doesn't encourage me to answer beyond that.

My legal carry causes me very little concern, even after reading Handog's unfortunate experience, because my method of carry makes it highly unlikely to be exposed. That's why I don't spend a lot of time worried about carrying on 30.06 posted government property. I'm very unlikely to be caught and even if I am, it's not illegal. When PISD officials are claiming they are not a government entity, their other (incorrect) interpretations of the law become very suspect.

[jimlongley]

And the charges were almost immediately dropped because they were unsupported by the law. That was the point of my "murder" hyperbole.

The operative term being "almost immediately" while all of your scenarios indicate that you expect no charges at all, and all I am saying is that you can expect to take an uncomfortable ride. Your hyperbole still fails.

PISD is a government entity. They have taxing authority, they are constituted under the laws of the State, and the Trustees are elected. The DPS doesn't support prosecutions unless they were the arresting agency.

While noting that you did not answer the question, I suggest you take your points about PISD and DPS up with them, I am merely restating what they told me.

I'm sure the other improperly posted government entities intend to prosecute, and in the unlikely event you're discovered, will undoubtedly fail (in their prosecution). DPS is irrelevant unless you somehow got arrested by a trooper.

Or if you're arrested by an agency that sees fit to follow DPS guidelines, but that's irrelevant, even if they fail in their prosecution, you have still been arrested and charged and spent some time in custody and are probably out money for an attorney and all sorts of other inconveniences, none of which would happen if they were to follow the law as written.

My legal carry causes me very little concern, even after reading Handog's unfortunate experience, because my method of carry makes it highly unlikely to be exposed. That's why I don't spend a lot of time worried about carrying on 30.06 posted government property. I'm very unlikely to be caught and even if I am, it's not illegal. When PISD officials are claiming they are not a government entity, their other (incorrect) interpretations of the law become very suspect.

But unlikely is not impossible, and "not illegal" is probably going to wind up in front of a judge or DA because the LEO is just doing his job the way he sees it or has been told to and suspect interpretations will get you nowhere with him. PISD says they are an "independant" school district, not a government entity, and I don't agree, so you can argue that point with them, arguing with me about their interpretation accomplishes not one little jot or tittle for you, I am merely stating what they told me. Same for DPS.

My original point, when answering HankB was that I had seen an "improper" 30.06 sign and I had it on their authority that they intended to arrest and prosecute despite laws to the contrary. And that a call to DPS (and I am not the only one to have the same conversation with DPS) about "improper signage" indicated that they intend to prosecute if a poster makes what they consider to be a reasonable effort to come close to the proper signage. Two separate incidents that you insist on concatenating while strutting around telling everyone that you won't be arrested because you are too well concealed and that you know the law. Fine, you know the law, so you go be the test case, the only time I have ever been in a jail cell was to take the cuffs off my prisoner and the only time I have ever been involved in an arrest I was an arrester, not an arrestee, and I intend to keep it that way even if I have to err on the side of caution.

I failed to bring up Love Field's 30.05 signs which are really off in another galaxy as far as leegality goes, but Love Field, a government entity, and most of the LEOs there, in the three years I worked there for TSA, when we had many conversations about this sort of thing, expect to follow their command's orders and arrest any individual caught carrying on the unsecured side, under authority of 30.06. Once again, just telling you what they said, and if you want to argue about it, call them, it's been covered often enough in other threads here, including pictures.

Fin