A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

[Brazos]

Apparently several large private entities who lease government property are watching this situation closely –

NTTA - The North Texas Toll Authority board met last Friday and, based on the actions taken by the State Fair, is considering a policy which would refuse use of all toll roads by CHL holders. NTTA is a private entity who leases and manages certain government roadways.

CHL holders would be required to stop at a manned toll booth prior to entry, present CHL and DL for recording and then be allowed to use the roadway. The CHL holder may refuse, but failure to comply would constitute criminal trespass.
Information would be destroyed at the end of each day.

Grapevine Wine Fest – This non-profit, private entity, leases streets and parks each year from the City of Grapevine for a weekend festival. They believe the State Fair, with approval of DPS’s attorneys, has set a precedent by requiring personal information of all CHL holders as a condition of entry. Their volunteers will be logging this information at next year’s event.

Scottish Games – This private entity is leasing Flag Pole Hill Park for next year’s games. Due to the ruling by DPS regarding Fair Park, all CHL holders discovered by their wanders will be required to present their CHL and DL. All personal information will be logged and registered by the gate personnel.

Are these real? – NO
Outrageous? Ridiculous? Preposterous? Do you think so?
Could they happen? – YES, JUST LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE STATE FAIR!

We CANNOT let our Texas State legislated rights fade away.

[Purplehood]

Apparently several large private entities who lease government property are watching this situation closely –

NTTA - The North Texas Toll Authority board met last Friday and, based on the actions taken by the State Fair, is considering a policy which would refuse use of all toll roads by CHL holders. NTTA is a private entity who leases and manages certain government roadways.

CHL holders would be required to stop at a manned toll booth prior to entry, present CHL and DL for recording and then be allowed to use the roadway. The CHL holder may refuse, but failure to comply would constitute criminal trespass.
Information would be destroyed at the end of each day.

Grapevine Wine Fest – This non-profit, private entity, leases streets and parks each year from the City of Grapevine for a weekend festival. They believe the State Fair, with approval of DPS’s attorneys, has set a precedent by requiring personal information of all CHL holders as a condition of entry. Their volunteers will be logging this information at next year’s event.

Scottish Games – This private entity is leasing Flag Pole Hill Park for next year’s games. Due to the ruling by DPS regarding Fair Park, all CHL holders discovered by their wanders will be required to present their CHL and DL. All personal information will be logged and registered by the gate personnel.

Are these real? – NO
Outrageous? Ridiculous? Preposterous? Do you think so?
Could they happen? – YES, JUST LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE STATE FAIR!

We CANNOT let our Texas State legislated rights fade away.

Man I am glad I read that one to the very last few sentences...

[kidder014]

So if you go, don't volunteer that you have a gun. Make them find it. Pull the keys out of your pocket when the beeper goes off. You have no responsibility to volunteer that you're carrying a weapon--the kid with the wand is not a police officer.

After keeping up with this thread, I tend to agree with this comment. Unless I have an LEO ask me for ID, I'd be tempted to not even pull out the CHL in the first place. After all, the "wanding" is simply a visual "deterrent", and doesn't really prevent anyone from bringing a gun into the park, licensed or not.

Personally, I think I'm done with the Fair, at least until they get their act together. I just don't know how I'm going to explain to my daughter that we aren't welcome at the Fair.

[mossytxn]

My first post here -- registered just to sound off on this issue.

Went to the fair today (Oct 11) and showed my CHL to the wander who said outloud to his supervisor "CHL here." Now everyone knows. She asked me in a plain voice if I was carrying, which I confirmed (again, everyone knows). Was told to wait by the gate supervisor.

Told I needed to wait for "Sammy". After about 20 minutes, Sammy showed up and insisted on writing down my info. When I questioned this, he got extremely terse and basically told me to comply or leave. I questioned why my info was being taken, and was told the usual 'in case something happens', 'in case your gun falls out of your pocket', etc. Was told that the sheet was shredded at the end of the day. Sammy also indicated that they could take info because they were a private organization leasing the Fair Park land. I questioned why take the info at all, and Sammy made clear he was done talking. In hindsight, I should have refused, but I complied just to get the situation over with.

Note that NO Dallas LEO was involved in this process. Sounds like they still don't have their process down.


-Keller

Seems to me that the wander should now be guilty of something. Afterall, if I lift my shirt and show my weapon on purpose, I can be charged with intentionally failing to conceal. Additionally, if I am in the middle of a room and shout out that I have a gun, at the very least I can get a brandishing charge.

For them to announce it loudly in front of others, it has to be some sort of violation. It's not fair that they can do it and I cannot.

[The Annoyed Man]

Grapevine Wine Fest – This non-profit, private entity, leases streets and parks each year from the City of Grapevine for a weekend festival. They believe the State Fair, with approval of DPS’s attorneys, has set a precedent by requiring personal information of all CHL holders as a condition of entry. Their volunteers will be logging this information at next year’s event.

I have my doubts about this one. As a Grapevine business owner, I am a member of the Grapevine Chamber of Commerce, and our chamber is very conservative in nature, and the city of Grapevine is very conservative in nature. The chamber helps to organize and staff this event. My wife - who has her CHL - volunteers to work in the various booths there. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would want to check this one out very carefully before believing it.

[chamberc]

Grapevine Wine Fest – This non-profit, private entity, leases streets and parks each year from the City of Grapevine for a weekend festival. They believe the State Fair, with approval of DPS’s attorneys, has set a precedent by requiring personal information of all CHL holders as a condition of entry. Their volunteers will be logging this information at next year’s event.

I have my doubts about this one. As a Grapevine business owner, I am a member of the Grapevine Chamber of Commerce, and our chamber is very conservative in nature, and the city of Grapevine is very conservative in nature. The chamber helps to organize and staff this event. My wife - who has her CHL - volunteers to work in the various booths there. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would want to check this one out very carefully before believing it.

His post was sarcasm. Last couple of lines said it wasn't true.

[jimlongley]

But I was singled out' and made to feel like a second-class citizen.

I wonder what they'd do if 20-30 CHLs in those, with a camera crew, declared at the gate.

I'm up for that, available Wednesday or Thursday, will be wearing ratty NRA jacket and TSRA hat, and a 1911.

[The Annoyed Man]

His post was sarcasm. Last couple of lines said it wasn't true.

Yeah, somebody else just pointed that out to me too. Oh well, I guess that explains why "Ol' Eagle Eyes"b (me) didn't do as well at the rifle range the other day as he did the last time.

[Dragonfighter]

I wonder what it would cost for us to collectively retain an attorney and make this a huge stink naming the State Fair of Texas Association, City of Dallas Parks and Recreatiion Department, DPD and Platinum Security (and maybe DPS for not enforcing the regulations concerning CHL carry and information gathering) as co-defendants.

I know for a fact that Dallas, can not absorb another hit from a law suit, they would either have to fight it or capitulate. The threat of negative publicity to all other parties should be enough to force them to rethink their "legal" opinion.

The mention of small groups getting their rights honored on this thread is true but common to each one was a loud noise. I think the TV crew idea was a good one as well.

I don't have a lot of money but I could throw in a couple of hundred...time 3-400 CHL holders is a 60K retainer...ought to be pretty attractive. I don't know where to look for the right kind of attorney, perhaps Charles or someone who has at least some organizational skills can sniff this out.

[Mithras61]

I'm trying my best to believe that they are being honest with us, but I keep hearing this "in case something happens," and I can't figure out what they think might happen.

If it's a shooting incident, the LEOs will get your CHL info at that time. The Fair people having it won't be much use to the LEOs, and it is quite unlikely that a CHLer would be involved in a shooting and NOT stay until the LEOs arrive (if it's so likely as they seem to think, why hasn't it happened yet?).

If your gun falls out of your pocket, how are they going to identify it as yours (were they recording serial numbers as well? I bet not!).

So beyond those two things, what do they think might happen that having your name & info might be of use to them?

[gemini]

I'm trying my best to believe that they are being honest with us, but I keep hearing this "in case something happens," and I can't figure out what they think might happen.

If it's a shooting incident, the LEOs will get your CHL info at that time. The Fair people having it won't be much use to the LEOs, and it is quite unlikely that a CHLer would be involved in a shooting and NOT stay until the LEOs arrive (if it's so likely as they seem to think, why hasn't it happened yet?).

If your gun falls out of your pocket, how are they going to identify it as yours (were they recording serial numbers as well? I bet not!).

So beyond those two things, what do they think might happen that having your name & info might be of use to them?

I think logic was absent when the minds (or mindless minions) that created the "policy" assembled.

[chamberc]

I'm trying my best to believe that they are being honest with us, but I keep hearing this "in case something happens," and I can't figure out what they think might happen.

If it's a shooting incident, the LEOs will get your CHL info at that time. The Fair people having it won't be much use to the LEOs, and it is quite unlikely that a CHLer would be involved in a shooting and NOT stay until the LEOs arrive (if it's so likely as they seem to think, why hasn't it happened yet?).

If your gun falls out of your pocket, how are they going to identify it as yours (were they recording serial numbers as well? I bet not!).

So beyond those two things, what do they think might happen that having your name & info might be of use to them?

I think logic was absent when the minds (or mindless minions) that created the "policy" assembled.

There is no logic in this policy. While it may be legal (or it might not be), it certainly serves no purpose.

[Mithras61]

I'm trying my best to believe that they are being honest with us, but I keep hearing this "in case something happens," and I can't figure out what they think might happen.

If it's a shooting incident, the LEOs will get your CHL info at that time. The Fair people having it won't be much use to the LEOs, and it is quite unlikely that a CHLer would be involved in a shooting and NOT stay until the LEOs arrive (if it's so likely as they seem to think, why hasn't it happened yet?).

If your gun falls out of your pocket, how are they going to identify it as yours (were they recording serial numbers as well? I bet not!).

So beyond those two things, what do they think might happen that having your name & info might be of use to them?

I think logic was absent when the minds (or mindless minions) that created the "policy" assembled.

Perhaps we should pursue this aspect a little further with them, then.

If there's a shooting, chances are that the fair having CHL info will be at best useless and at worst a distraction from the criminal investigation. Are they intentionally trying to hamper the investigation of any such incidents?

Consider the number of State Fairs since CHLers have been allowed to carry to the fair. What is the total number of firearms incidents and how many were attributed to CHLers?

Let's force them to realize that they are wasting their time and money and potential income (how many will simply refuse to go so long as they insist on gathering this information that is useless for its alleged purposes and only of use to someone with either harassment or nefarious purposes?). Now they are having to employ Dallas LEOs to provide additional security at the gates to handle this issue, and are wasting even more time and money than they were previously. How are they ensuring that the information is actually destroyed?

I'd also like to see some evidence that it is handled properly (that is, with appropriate levels of security and discretion), since they have repeatedly lied to us and their word is now completely worthless, so their word that this information is shredded at the end of the day is also worthless.

[kidder014]

Just a little insight on the "new" policy and the disorganization of it.

A buddy of mine, who is also a CHL holder, went to the Fair this weekend with his family. He spoke with the officer at the gate, and showed his CHL, and the officer logged whatever info he logged, and then told my buddy to inform the "security" that the officer had already taken his info. (My buddy doesn't seem to have much concern with regard to this practice, and although I don't agree, he is entitled to his opinion)

There was no communication between the officer and the security, and the interaction with the officer was done quite some distance from the gates. He told me that, at least on that particular day, it would've been all too easy to simply go straight to the gates and inform "security" that the officer had already logged his info, whether that was true or not, and they would've never known the difference.

I think the "new" policy is nothing more than a presentation to try and get CHL holders to "feel" more secure about the process and simply drop the issue. I, for one, hope that we show them that this is not being taken lightly and that we won't simply back-down on this issue.

[Purplehood]

It is akin to making us drink from a separate drinking-fountain. The folks running the fair don't want to make us feel welcome, but they don't want to get hit with a legal suit. So they contrive conditions for our safety and others. Deja vu.