A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

[suthdj]

Sadly we are a small percentage of the community and won't have much economic impact.

[KD5NRH]

Sadly we are a small percentage of the community and won't have much economic impact.

Look at other, smaller percentages of the community that have gotten bigger changes simply by being heard - especially when they start making themselves heard at the polls.

[austin-tatious]

Added in Edit: I will be interested in seeing how the senators and DPS PSB people respond. Monday dawn's a new day.

Probably not Monday...Oct 12 is Columbus Day, a gummint holiday.

[roberts]

People got upset when I said "anti-gun Texans" so I won't say that.

Instead I'll ask you to think what the NAACP would say if the state fair wrote down the info of African Americans who go to the fair, or what the ADC would say if the state fair recorded info of women who wear the hijab.

[AEA]

Most probably it is not Texans doing this. It would be more likely it is Yankee Democrats that have moved into our state and think they can get away with practicing their usual mode of operation!

Same sort of mind that says buy health care or pay a fine or go to jail. If we end up being forced to pay a fine if we do not buy health care, what's next? Maybe another fine if you do not get a flu shot every year? Get the idea?

The above post is a good example of what should be used as ideas to quash this behavior, since they will not listen to the actual laws and abide by them.

[suthdj]

Sadly we are a small percentage of the community and won't have much economic impact.

Look at other, smaller percentages of the community that have gotten bigger changes simply by being heard - especially when they start making themselves heard at the polls.

Yes, But I would make this fight about privacy not discrimination of CHL holders. I think a large part of the population won't care if we cant carry at the state fair or anywhere for that matter however make it a privacy issue and it will concern a lot more people.

[sredish]

Yes, But I would make this fight about privacy not discrimination of CHL holders. I think a large part of the population won't care if we cant carry at the state fair or anywhere for that matter however make it a privacy issue and it will concern a lot more people.

I agree. And the sad part is, complaining to the vendors and typical citizens will generally give them the opinion that we, as licensed carryers, are whiners as they feel there's no reason we need to carry in the first place. Comes back to the bubble they fail to see out of. Nonetheless, a right is a right and it must be maintained.

Here's my question, and it may be a stupid one... worst-case scenario, what would be the worst thing that could happen by them recording your information down? I'm not saying I'm okay with it or would even let them do it, but I'm trying to think of what could possibly happen in a worst-case?

[gemini]

Sadly we are a small percentage of the community and won't have much economic impact.

Chicago, IL (MMD Newswire) December 16, 2008 -- The Top 50 North American Fairs drew 40,670,657 guests in 2008, only a small decrease of 2% from 2007. The list was led once again by the State Fair of Texas with an estimated 2,024,000 visitors.

I think a reasonable percentage of visitors to the Fair that could be CHL holders = 20,240. I spent $150 in 2008 at the Fair. 20,240x$150=$3,036,000. I think losing $3,036,000 makes a economic impact. Even if only 1/2 of that figure (20,240 /2 =10,120)
fail to attend, based on $150 average per family, it's a loss of $1,518,000. Not chump change. Larger families could easily spend more. The CHL community could very easily make a financial impact if motivated.

Look at other, smaller percentages of the community that have gotten bigger changes simply by being heard - especially when they start making themselves heard at the polls.

I think it will be more effective, in this instance, to make yourself heard by your State Rep, city councilman (if a Dallas resident), Executive Board Members of the State Fair of Texas, State Fair vendors, State fair Management and Public Relations.

Yes, But I would make this fight about privacy not discrimination of CHL holders. I think a large part of the population won't care if we cant carry at the state fair or anywhere for that matter however make it a privacy issue and it will concern a lot more people.

This issue has more than one facet. Protection of privacy and obeying state law. I challenge them to post 30.06. They won't, because they can't, according to state law (at least the part of 30.06 they are willing to follow). The part they aren't following
refers to "property owned OR leased by a government ................" OR leased, means either the government leased the property from another, OR the government leased property to another. It's worded to include both situations.

PC 30.06 Trespass by Holder of License to Carry Concealed Handgun; (a) A license holder commits an offense if
the license holder:(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on
property of another without efective consent; and .................................................we know this part.....
(3) (e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited
from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035

Seems pretty clear to me I can carry at the Fair or any other public park. No other conditions or restrictions applied.
It means they can't post 30.06 because it's owned or leased by a government entity. To do so would supercede state law.

[Fisherman74]

The worst thing is that they get away with violating the privacy and rights of CHL Holders and once they get away with it, some other entity will decide they can get away with it also, and slowly over time rights begin to disappear. It is the old idea of taking something away or changing something so slowly that people get used to or accepting of something and when they realize it is gone, it is too late.

To me this a voilation of privacy and the way I read the laws that relate, it seems it is a voilation of the law. I don't see how you can make the collection of information a requirement for entry to a place a person has a right to be. Even if this was a different situation and you were to collect information on anything it would seem it would have to be across the board on everyone or none at all.

I will be watching this issue and how elected officials and vendors respond. My support will go to those that support the rights and privacy of law abiding citizens.

Regardless of wether you have a license or not, this seems to be a voilation of individual rights and privacy.

[gemini]

Yes, But I would make this fight about privacy not discrimination of CHL holders. I think a large part of the population won't care if we cant carry at the state fair or anywhere for that matter however make it a privacy issue and it will concern a lot more people.

I agree. And the sad part is, complaining to the vendors and typical citizens will generally give them the opinion that we, as licensed carryers, are whiners as they feel there's no reason we need to carry in the first place. Comes back to the bubble they fail to see out of. Nonetheless, a right is a right and it must be maintained.

Here's my question, and it may be a stupid one... worst-case scenario, what would be the worst thing that could happen by them recording your information down? I'm not saying I'm okay with it or would even let them do it, but I'm trying to think of what could possibly happen in a worst-case?

Complaining to vendors is a good idea. I would imagine John Deere sells equipment to alot of farmers and ranchers. The farmers and ranchers I know, all own guns. About 1/3 of the ones I know have CHL's. Almost all are NRA members. For John Deere to support an organization that is anti-gun ..... might be likened to shooting ones self in the foot. Dairy industry? Same. Manufacturers pay attention to customer concerns. I'm not "whining". I'm also not complaining to typical citizens. I'm trying to express my concerns to the people that might actually be able to help correct the situation or exert influence. I will try to protect my rights.

worst case: ID theft. Yea, it happens everyday.
another worst case: the recorded information "somehow" gets to a reporter at the Dallas Morning Snooze.....they publish the info in the paper. CHL's have been outed in other states. That's why our legislators passed a ban on open records requests of CHL info.
another worst case: money. Is that a stretch? I don't know. Is a LEO involved in robbing a Walmart a stretch? Sell the list rather than destroy it.
another worst case: someone finds all the lists, that were SUPPOSED to be destroyed, containing your personal information, in a dumpster. Yea, that happens with medical records, the TX Dept of Human Services, loan companies etc. Could happen in this instance too.
My examples are taken straight from news stories.

[gemini]

The worst thing is that they get away with violating the privacy and rights of CHL Holders and once they get away with it, some other entity will decide they can get away with it also, and slowly over time rights begin to disappear. It is the old idea of taking something away or changing something so slowly that people get used to or accepting of something and when they realize it is gone, it is too late.

To me this a voilation of privacy and the way I read the laws that relate, it seems it is a voilation of the law. I don't see how you can make the collection of information a requirement for entry to a place a person has a right to be. Even if this was a different situation and you were to collect information on anything it would seem it would have to be across the board on everyone or none at all.

I will be watching this issue and how elected officials and vendors respond. My support will go to those that support the rights and privacy of law abiding citizens.

Regardless of wether you have a license or not, this seems to be a voilation of individual rights and privacy.

Ditto. Often called "slow erosion of rights" or Soft Tyranny. Happens very slow. Until it's too late.

[keller999]

My first post here -- registered just to sound off on this issue.

Went to the fair today (Oct 11) and showed my CHL to the wander who said outloud to his supervisor "CHL here." Now everyone knows. She asked me in a plain voice if I was carrying, which I confirmed (again, everyone knows). Was told to wait by the gate supervisor.

Told I needed to wait for "Sammy". After about 20 minutes, Sammy showed up and insisted on writing down my info. When I questioned this, he got extremely terse and basically told me to comply or leave. I questioned why my info was being taken, and was told the usual 'in case something happens', 'in case your gun falls out of your pocket', etc. Was told that the sheet was shredded at the end of the day. Sammy also indicated that they could take info because they were a private organization leasing the Fair Park land. I questioned why take the info at all, and Sammy made clear he was done talking. In hindsight, I should have refused, but I complied just to get the situation over with.

Note that NO Dallas LEO was involved in this process. Sounds like they still don't have their process down.

Also note that I went to the fair a week ago, and showed my CHL to the gatekeeper. They didn't even examine it, just waved me through.

Finally, have we narrowed down a list of who to contact on this issue? Sounds like some are unable to act, and others are responsive. Who should I send e-mails to in order to have my complaint heard?

Thanks for fighting the good fight, happy to help if I can, even to the point of making monetary donations. Has anyone had luck contacting the NRA on this?

-Keller

[gemini]

My first post here -- registered just to sound off on this issue.

Went to the fair today (Oct 11) and showed my CHL to the wander who said outloud to his supervisor "CHL here." Now everyone knows. She asked me in a plain voice if I was carrying, which I confirmed (again, everyone knows). Was told to wait by the gate supervisor.

Told I needed to wait for "Sammy". After about 20 minutes, Sammy showed up and insisted on writing down my info. When I questioned this, he got extremely terse and basically told me to comply or leave. I questioned why my info was being taken, and was told the usual 'in case something happens', 'in case your gun falls out of your pocket', etc. Was told that the sheet was shredded at the end of the day. Sammy also indicated that they could take info because they were a private organization leasing the Fair Park land. I questioned why take the info at all, and Sammy made clear he was done talking. In hindsight, I should have refused, but I complied just to get the situation over with.

Note that NO Dallas LEO was involved in this process. Sounds like they still don't have their process down.

Also note that I went to the fair a week ago, and showed my CHL to the gatekeeper. They didn't even examine it, just waved me through.

Finally, have we narrowed down a list of who to contact on this issue? Sounds like some are unable to act, and others are responsive. Who should I send e-mails to in order to have my complaint heard?

Thanks for fighting the good fight, happy to help if I can, even to the point of making monetary donations. Has anyone had luck contacting the NRA on this?

-Keller

Still not discrete. No Leo? Nothing the Fair workers do surprizes me anymore. Right now, you have 2 choices. Let them take whatever information they desire from you and record it, or refuse to allow your rights to be abused and not attend. I chose the later. Call or contact Fair Management, Fair PR, your State rep, your State Sen, Fair Park Board members. Read the rest of the thread. You'll get plenty of ideas who to contact.

[pdubyoo]

Sadly we are a small percentage of the community and won't have much economic impact.

The folks that had their rally in DC this past weekend don't see it that way, and I'd say they've been pretty successful at getting most of what they want.

[zeroskillz]

My experience yesterday was identical to keller999's. Not discreet at all, had a group of us go stand by a tree. Wait for grumpy-gus to come take down our info.

I went along with it, but the fact that I woke up thinking about it today tells me that it's really bugging me and something needs to be done. I don't know what, but something.

We need a clear and verifiable explanation about their policy of taking info. It wouldn't bother me so much if they took everyones info. Equal...

But I was singled out' and made to feel like a second-class citizen. Being scolded by the 'official' for telling him I though it was wrong to take my info didn't help.

I will not return to the Texas State Fair. Ever. It's left a bad taste in my mouth and I have no wish to support any organization that makes me feel like less of a citizen.

Here's the deal if you're going to go, just look at the screeners before getting in line. I happened to go to the one (of three) screeners that was actually doing their job. My mistake.

While waiting to be reviewed and approved or bounced, I watched the other screeners. Wanding pockets and hips that beeped and just wave em through. Or no wanding at all. So if you go, don't volunteer that you have a gun. Make them find it. Pull the keys out of your pocket when the beeper goes off. You have no responsibility to volunteer that you're carrying a weapon--the kid with the wand is not a police officer. But be prepared to stand be the tree and be berated along with your fellow pre-screened-felony-free citizens while your friends and family wait for you to be measured and weighed by the Texas State Fair Trolls. As long as you're willing to endure that, go enjoy the fair. It's a blast for the family and kids.

Any suggestions on what can be done? Other that a boycott of the fair? Can the TSRA or NRA help? Thoughts?

Thanks,
-Ted
CHL and FFL holder.