A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

[Dragonfighter]

I couldn't agree with you more. A very direct and well written letter. The attorneys that met today were DPS CHL attorney, City of Dallas attorney and attorney for the State Fair. They did come to a decision on what is required for entry into the Fair grounds. However, I do not have all the specifics at this point. I should have the specifics by tomorrow and will post them. I am very interested in the response of Greg Abbott. Believe me when I say, I understand completely your frustration in trying to get a straight answer from anyone associated with the Fair. Be it management, security, gate personnel, city council etc.

Thank you for your kind words. It was a huge step backwards and I figure if they are hit from all directions maybe it will sink in that their economics could be in danger.

I am interested in the specifics of the decision myself. I really appreciate your effort in pursuing this. I went ahead and sent Greg Abbott an email including the body of the letter, to expedite. If past experience with his office is any indicator, I would not be surprised to at least receive an email if not a phone call seeking more specifics.

[gemini]

I believe there's a good chance Jon David Wells may be commenting on this very topic this afternoon.
KLIF 570.

[joe817]

I believe there's a good chance Jon David Wells may be commenting on this very topic this afternoon.
KLIF 570.

Excellent gemini! I'll be sure to be tuned in. He's on from 4pm-7pm. He's a member of this forum, and a CHL holder.

[Dragonfighter]

The AG's office got in contact with me and basically made a split decision. They said that they have no jurisdiction on the "policies" of a local municipality or "private" entities such as the Non-Profit State Fair of Texas Association. It was their opinion I (we) need to keep working through the local government to resolve violations occurring on their property.

However they said that the possible improper use of private information was evident enough to forward to the Consumer Protection Division for investigation and that they may be contacting me to further pursue that issue.

So a mixed bag. I would have thought such a blatant violation of State Law by the City of Dallas (albeit by complicity) would have warranted a stronger response. Oh well, the city manager knows about both the email and the letter to the AG now, I sent information to the mayor's office (I could not find an email contact for Mary Suhm) and they have confirmed they have forwarded it to her office.

Gemini, any details yet?

Added in edit: J.D Wells is a member of this forum?!? Outstanding!

Also, the AG has added that I should contact Kay Bailey and John Cornyn as well as the DPS' office on private security regulation. Has anyone here already done that, if not I will...I might anyway...I'm still hot.

[joe817]

I just fired off an email to Jon-David Wells, the host of "The Wells Report" on KLIF 570 AM in Dallas:

Good afternoon,

My name is Joe from Arlington. I would like to bring your attention to the extremely questionable practice that some(but not all) gate attendants are using at the State Fair.

That of REQUIRING a Concealed Handgun License holder, in order to gain admittance into the State fair grounds, to submit the recording of personal information. As the Texas Department of Public Safety is prohibited from divulging sensitive information, such as the State Fair security personnel is doing, this is an outrage that cannot be tolerated. The Texas State Fair Grounds is owned by the City of Dallas, and as such cannot deny entry of any licensed citizen to the State of Texas by law. But they are doing just that IF a CHL holder refuses to divulge that sensitive and private information.

As Mr. Wells is a CHL holder himself, I am quite sure he would be interested in knowing of such outrageous events taking place at the State Fair.

I have spoken to Jim briefly on the TexasCHLforum.com, which Jim is a member.

I kindly ask that you review the following thread which an ongoing discussion of this injustice inflicted on honest law abiding citizens, who happen to hold a CHL:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=28333" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also ask, that if you deem justified to open a short discourse on these events on your most popular talk show radio program "The Wells Report".

Thank you in advance for your participation in these unfolding event.

Kindest Regards,
Joe
Arlington, Texas

[C-dub]

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.

This was sent to me by the DPD Officer I've been in contact with.

State Fair Administration implemented a new policy in this regard today. The new policy engages the Dallas Police Officers assigned to each gate in a manner you describe below and plainclothes Dallas Police Officers working for the State Fair.

The exception to your suggestion, however, is that the reviewing plainclothes officer will securely retain CHL holder information until the end of the Fair day. The info will then be shredded. This process has been reviewed and approved by the TX DPS attorney overseeing the CHL program in Austin.

And this was my response.

That is a step in the right direction, but I’m not sure many licensees will be much more comfortable with this. I trust an LEO with this information much more than the average person. However, I still don’t think I would enter the park under these conditions. Unless the personal information of every person entering the park is collected, collecting this information from CHL holders says that there is something inherently untrustworthy about us, yet we have gone through background checks by the state and the FBI. The fact that I have to show an officer my license at all tells others around me, entering at the same time, that there is something different about me. Some won’t notice and some won’t have any idea, but some will know and that puts me at risk. As they say, “concealed is concealed” and usually no one is the wiser, but not now. The state has determined that the average person does not have a right to know if I’m carrying a handgun and not having to show my license to a non-LEO is a good decision. I respect that decision very much. However, unless I have committed a crime, even the Police, with the exception of the DPS because that’s who issues the licenses, aren’t allowed to collect this information, due to it being a form of registration.

I don’t know who, if anyone that will take any type of action on this other than also not attending, but I won’t be attending the fair again if I have to allow this information to be collected, even by a Police Officer. Do you know why the security company feels compelled to collect this information?

I have not received a response to this yet and I'm not sure there will be one. They may consider this a closed matter.

[Dragonfighter]

Okay, I have cotacted every one that the AG's office suggested. Here is the body of those contacts.

To Senator Hutchison

Senator Hutchison,

My family and I typically visit the fair 2-3 times a year. Under Texas' Penal Code 30.05 and 30.06, a premises that is owned or leased by a government entity cannot deny entry to a holder of a CHL.

Also, only a magistrate or a peace officer can demand display of the CHL and ID if the bearer is armed. The State Fair of Texas and its contract security Platinum have adopted a policy this year that when a CHL bearer presents his/her credentials ( a concession by most to streamline entry) they are singled out, scrutinized by a "supervisor" and their private and identifiable information is recorded on a steno pad. Not only is this insulting to law abiding citizens (no one else is singled out or scrutinized) but they are gathering enough information to facilitate harassment if improperly disseminated and identity theft when not accounted for.

The gate "supervisor" had no idea what happened to the information once gathered. I have contacted the director's office of the state fair and Platinum security and was met with evasiveness and discourteous responses. No one would account for or assure me the security and destruction of gathered information.

As the gathering of and use of private information is regulated federally, may I beg your indulgence in your office coming to bear and stop this nefarious practice and to garner assurance that the gathered information has been securely destroyed?

To Senator Cornyn

Senator Cornyn,

I am the holder of a concealed handgun license issued by the state of Texas and have been for many years, As I am sure you are aware; in order to be awarded a CHL in Texas you have to have had an exemplary record of personal conduct and in some areas, the requirements are more demanding than those required for peace officer.

Several years ago Texas Penal Code 30.05 and 30.06 were modified to close a loop hole in which local and county governments would deny access to their facilities by CHL holders. The language reads in part, "It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035."

Also, only a magistrate or peace officer can demand that a CHL bearer display their credentials if they are armed. (Government Code 411.205).

Previously, to enter the State Fair of Texas one had to only display their credentials discreetly to the wand handler and were then either waved through or expeditiously escorted to the posted police officer to verify. Presentation of credentials under these circumstances was a concession of many CHL holdrs as it expedited entry and no personal information was compromised.

This year, the State Fair of Texas has adopted a policy of singling out CHL holders, taking them out of line and then a "supervisor" will write down a good deal of private information on a Steno pad including License numbers, address and DOB. The gate supervisor had no idea what happens to the information after its being recorded. Refusal to surrebder this information will (and has) result in an embarrassing episode of scurtiny by other supervisors, a public "dressing down" and ultimately denial of entry. Attempts to gather information as to the use, security and or destruction of this gathered private information were met with evasive and discourteous responses from both the State Fair of Texas and Platinum Security with no assurances given as to the security or destruction of the private information.

This process is humiliating to someone who has served the public their entire adult life and have earned the coveted CHL through maintaining a high standard of personal conduct. But what is a bigger concern in this matter and hopefully what your office will see the need to deal with is that; the "mandated" gathering of this information above any possible legal authority carries a massive potential for abuse of the CHL bearer and identity theft if the information is not destroyed and is improperly disseminated or "stolen".

Further, the singling out of CHL holders "outs" them to the immediate public and violates both the spirit and letter of the law for concealed carry weapons.

As the gathering and dissemination of private information is federally regulated, it is my prayer that your office will bring its authority to bear on this issue and stop the extortion of private information from your most law abiding citizens. Also, I ask that your office garner assurances of the secure destruction of the information gathered thus far.

To DPS PSB Office

Since Penal Code 30.06 has been modified to prevent premises owned or leased by government entities from denying entry to CHL holders, carry to the State Fair (situated in a high crime area) has been common. Until now, a discreet display to the gate attendant/screener was sufficient to either be admitted or quietly escorted to the posted police officer to verify the credentials. Though exceeding the Government Code (Sec. 411.205) many CHL bearers (myself included) have conceded to display or credentials as it has been discreet and no personal information was divulged.

This year the Platinum ESI personnel will, when presented with the credentials, single out the bearer and take them aside. They are then subjected to scrutiny by a "supervisor" and personally identifiable information including name, address and DOB are collected on a Steno pad. When asked, the gate personnel could not account for what happens to the information after this step. Refusal to disclose this information will (and has) result in an embarrassing "conference" with other supervisors. These "meetings" in front of the public are riddled with open disdain for the CHL bearer and ultimately entry is denied unless the information is submitted. Further attempts to garner assurances of the security and/or destruction of the gathered information has resulted in evasive and discourteous treatment. Further any assurances as to the security, dissemination and destruction of this information has been refused.

My complaint has three main tenants:

1) This singling out and removal from line of a CHL bearer exposes one as being armed and violates the letter and intent of the law concerning concealed carry of weapons.

2) The gathering and storage of of private information on CHL bearers far exceeds any possible authority for the display of credentials and privacy protection afforded CHL bearers. (GC 411.205 and 411.192).

3) With no clear assurance mor accountability, the potential for harassment or identity theft is massive if the information gathered thus far is not securely destroyed and as a result is improperly disseminated and/or "stolen".

I respectfully ask that your office investigate, censure or take appropriate action to prevent further abuses and to insure the destruction of private information they have already gathered.

Thank You,

If you would like to complain as well the email for the DPS PSB Dallas office is: PSB_DallasComplaint@txdps.state.tx.us

I guess I'm done with the fair this year, the police are now checking the "ze papers" but the offense is still going on.

Added in edit: Has anyone contacted Chief Kunkle and advised him that his ODO's are being compelled by their private security employer to gather information on CHL holders in violation of State law? He may have been insulated thus far.

[C-dub]

Added in edit: Has anyone contacted Chief Kunkle and advised him that his ODO's are being compelled by their private security employer to gather information on CHL holders in violation of State law? He may have been insulated thus far.

I have not.

[3dfxMM]

DragonFighter, you keep saying that they are in violation of state law and that only magistrates/LEOs can ask someone to display their CHL. I haven't been able to find such a statute. The one you mention, 411.205, doesn't say that. It says that we must produce both if asked for ID when we are carrying. It doesn't say that it is against the law for someone else to ask us. We certainly aren't compelled to provide the information, but I haven't seen anything that says they can't ask. It is not unreasonable for them to wand people to help keep unlicensed persons from bringing weapons on site. It is not, therefore, unreasonable for someone to need to show that they are indeed carrying legally. Where they have crossed the line is in taking down the information. There is absolutely no reason for that.

[Dragonfighter]

3dfx,

I understand your conclusion but here is my logic. The authority to demand presentation of CHL and identification credentials is narrowly defined in 411.205. Thus, predicating my entry into a publicly owned facility on the display of said credentials is "demanding" their presentation, placing conditions on the entry to public property above and beyond state law. As I have mentioned in all of my communications, conceding to the discreet display of a CHL with no subsequent information being divulged, streamlines the process and thus doesn't "rub the pretty off of me". But let's be clear, displaying a CHL to a private security person is purely my option. There is also the potential that such display of a CHL declares to anyone who cares to notice that you are armed, singling out and discussing it verbally properly ensures that declaration. Conceivably, a DA with an agenda could prosecute (albeit with difficulty) for failure to properly conceal.

It is not unreasonable for them to wand people to help keep unlicensed persons from bringing weapons on site. It is not, therefore, unreasonable for someone to need to show that they are indeed carrying legally.

Reasonableness is a mercurial standard. Is it then reasonable to post wanders at the Library? The Water Department? How about Bachman Lake Park? I know, let's post private security screeners strategically on the sidewalks...wonderful.

The only time I need to prove I am carrying legally is in compliance with state law. I.E. display of credentials to notify an arresting officer (a traffic stop is an arrest), upon discovery and challenge of my being armed by a peace officer or magistrate. It is truly no one's business if I am carrying at all much less proving to their satisfaction that I am carrying legally. My willingness to flash an ID at a gate screener at the fair is not withstanding.

The gathering of information has brought all this to a head. Regardless of my (our) previous compliance with these "policies" does not negate the fact that they exceed the law in many aspects. This needs to be shaken out.

[srothstein]

The AG's office got in contact with me and basically made a split decision. They said that they have no jurisdiction on the "policies" of a local municipality or "private" entities such as the Non-Profit State Fair of Texas Association. It was their opinion I (we) need to keep working through the local government to resolve violations occurring on their property.

However they said that the possible improper use of private information was evident enough to forward to the Consumer Protection Division for investigation and that they may be contacting me to further pursue that issue.

So a mixed bag. I would have thought such a blatant violation of State Law by the City of Dallas (albeit by complicity) would have warranted a stronger response.

Not to sidetrack the question here, but Texas really does have a fairly weak AG. He is very powerful in certain ways (such as his interpretation of the law carrying the weight of the law) that he has been authorized to act in, but he is very limited in many ways (such as only being able to investigate certain things or where asked by certain people).

I think his answer is very good for us. He is basically agreeing that there is a problem and doing what he can legally do to help.

[wacokid]

Well it sounds like the "Wells' Report" with John David Wells on KLIF has decided to talk about the Obama Nobel Prize story all day. Hopefully they will be able to talk about the subject of this thread next week. I will be calling next week, as I’m sure many other will be doing, to make sure they don’t put this off again.

[3dfxMM]

I understand your conclusion but here is my logic. The authority to demand presentation of CHL and identification credentials is narrowly defined in 411.205.

411.205 doesn't discuss the authority to demand presentation of a CHL at all. It simply says that when asked to show ID by a magistrate or LEO we must also show our CHL if we are armed at the time.

The only time I need to prove I am carrying legally is in compliance with state law. I.E. display of credentials to notify an arresting officer (a traffic stop is an arrest), upon discovery and challenge of my being armed by a peace officer or magistrate.

Again, there is no mention of the circumstances when you might have to show your CHL other than it is never required if you are not armed.

[numist]

Went to the fair at 10:30 am this Friday morning, entering Gate 2 (near train museum). There were about 4 people in line. When the wander came forward I held up my CHL. She politely and quietly pointed me to the DPD officer just inside the gate. After I purchased a ticket I went over to him. I showed him my CHL, he took it, looked at it then asked for my ID.
I showed him ID at which point he took it also while calling on the radio "I have a CHL at gate 2".
Shortly afterward a civilian (older w/m with a white cowboy hat and blue dress shirt) arrived via golf cart. He proceeded to record, on a form, my information. I saw that the form also had several other entries before mine.
While he was writing, I made small talk asking about the new procedure. The DPD officer said it was their 'policy'. He and another officer there were very polite and we discussed the fact that this is the first time in several years that this was happening. He also said "since the fair is private property they can do what they want". I did mention that it was, indeed, public property. At that point the civilian record-taker started saying 'that's our policy for anyone, including law enforcement... we had security doing this before but now we have to have police do it'.
I asked what exactly was to become of this private, sensitive information. The civilian did say several times that it was shredded at the end of each day. I smiled, took back my cards and proceeded to eat my way through the fair with no other problems or issues. Considering who I was with I didn't have the luxury of denying myself entry based upon their taking my information.
I certainly hope that the laws are changed soon to stop allowing entities, regardless of nature, to make it so tough on the law-abiding citizens.

[Commander]

. He also said "since the fair is private property they can do what they want". .

So using that logic, the Cinemark Theater where I went last weekend can start demanding my CHL and recording my information; the restaurant where I ate that night can start doing the same....they're both "private property"...Geez! Give me a break!