A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

[mikeintexas]

In following this and a couple of other posts dealing with the State Fair of Texas, this is the worst "violation" I've read. The Fair's people are calling this "their policy," but there have been other folks enter the Fair after flashing the CHL and were responded to by "enjoy your day at the Fair." There was no attempt to collect information or yelling CHL across the way to the LEO.

It appears that there is no policy in place.

My wife, grandsons and I went to the Fair last year with no problems. In fact, the clowns waving the wands didn't find my .45 in my shoulder rig. I didn't get out my CHL.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.

[ScubaSigGuy]

Well, I had a few spare minutes so I decided to call Mr. Ledbetter just to see if anything had changed. After tap dancing and skirting around the issue he confirmed that the policy to collect CHL information is still in effect. He preemptively explained to me that the State Fair was a private entity on private property and that if I was demanding to bring my “gun” in that they had not YET decided to deny CHL’s access while carrying. He said carrying a "gun" was discouraged because it's an amusement park with families and lots of people present. He further stated that the information was being collected to help aid the Dallas Police should any issues arise. He said this would give them a list to know where to start looking. (I am not sure what that meant, but asking him wasn’t going to get me anywhere). He vaguely mentioned weapons being lost on rides and that although they had not yet had an “accidental discharge”, there were reports of some folks being alarmed by weapons not properly concealed. He mentioned several times that since there is such a large contingency of uniformed officers present that it was very unlikely I would need a “gun”. I kindly explained that I didn’t know when, if ever, I would need my sidearm, but it was certainly better to be prepared while walking from my car, especially due to the nature of the surrounding areas. He then suggested that I take the DART, or park on the grounds as they have had reports of vehicle break-ins and stereo and electronics theft outside of the park.

Let me say that I was very polite and respectful, but it didn’t take long for Mr. Ledbetter to tire of my questions. He was polite, but seemed quite irritated when I asked him how the NPPI (Non-Public Personal Information) was being handled, how it was being stored, how long it was being kept, how is was secured, and at what point was it destroyed. He further explained that the security company was in charge of handling that, it wasn’t his arena.

If nothing else, they might be breaking the law as there are specific guidelines as to how certain entities handled NPPI. Mr. L. did refer to me the company in charge of handling security and gave me their number.
Platinum Security 214-364-9499

When I pressed him on the fact that the grounds are public property he disagreed and quickly became defensive and told me that he was just “a little guy” in all of this, sarcastically stating that since I knew more than him, despite his years of experience working there, that I should probably speak to a lawyer to handle this. While he was polite except for the defensive sarcasm, he’s not very bright, and he certainly isn’t on our side or even neutral for that matter.

Ultimately I got that feeling that he had more questions on this than he was going to admit, and that he was starting to lose his patience on the issue.

[srothstein]

First, I want to say I support all of your efforts in edning this. I do not believe the State Fair Association has the right to collect this information against your will.

But, I do want to point out that they may be within their legal authority. They cannot deny you entrance to the fair because you are carrying, but they may (and I emphasize may, indicating possibility not certainty) be able to deny you entrance for failure to provide them with your name and address and CHL info. There is nothing in the law that I can find that forbids this collection of data or a 30.05 warning for criminal trespass for failure to cooperate.

The law on confidentiality only applies to DPS releasing the information. It does not pertain to the private organizations or you releasing the information. This is how it should be, with restrictions on what the government can do but not on individuals or businesses. Since State Fair of Texas is a private non-profit corporation that receives no government funding (according to their web site), the rules on the government should not apply to it.

So, how can they justify the 30.05 warning? Well, entry into a private event is always by some type of contract. In this case, part of the contract is that you provide them with certain information IF you are carrying a weapon by using a CHL (I wonder if they are copying down off duty cops info too). This may be the same under the law as requiring you to pay a fee for an entry ticket.

I disagree with them, but I can see where they could make a legal argument that would survive an initial court exam. This means we could be in for a fight that will not be resolved this year. I think that we need to get TSRA to start working on a permanent solution by drafting a bill that does make this information totally confidential.

[C-dub]

Unfortunately, I'm just getting ready to go out or I would give them a call right now. Maybe tomorrow. I'll check back later to see what any responses from them have been if anyone calls tonight.

[KFP]

Gemini, OUTSTANDING ! If ever there ever a cause for us as a collective group to stand firm with our rights, and let it be known, this is the one. I hope the media people get back in touch with you.

Well done!

C-dub, great work! Thank you! I'll do a follow up in Monday.

I totally agree with KFP. This is one issue I believe the TSRA would WANT to become involved with. The State Fair is for ALL Texans throughout the State of ours. I hope Charles reads this thread, and give us his opinion.

I did contact TSRA before the work day was over and was told that at least one person had already contacted them to make them aware of the situation. She suggested contacting the Executive Director.....I think he'll get the message in one form or the other.

[gemini]

ScubaSigGuy, I found the comment that CHL's have caused alot of problems, and the idea that a CHL would lose a gun,
and then not know it, or not immediately go to the Fair management to report a stolen/lost gun, amusing. Totally crazy
thinking.....almost laughable. Thank you for making the enquiry. Sorry you didn't get any better answer or response than
I did.

Steve R, I have read many of your posts. You're a great addition and knowledge base for this forum. There are many
issues involved in the current Fair management's decision to deny access without revealing personal information. One issue
is : A municipality may not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, license or registration of firearms, ammunition, or firearms supplies.
I feel strongly that this is a form of registration. I don't think a municipality can break the law. I don't think a municipality can authorize
a leasee or renter to break the law.
I'm willing to let the lawyers duke it out, on more than one or two levels. If it's not resolved this year, then maybe next. But it does need to
be clarified. My Fair trip won't be happening this year. I'm Ok with that. I think this is a gun rights issue and I guess "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore"!
I respect your opinion and wisdom. Thanks for paticipating in this thread.

[wacokid]

I just heard on WBAP that Mark Davis will be discussing this topic on Monday morning. Hope you get a chance to tell your story to an even bigger audience. Without people like you, America would be in a far worse place. We need to take a lesson from Gemini. Stand up for your Rights and for what is Right. If we don’t take a stand now, we may lose this precious right all together. I’m behind you 100%.

[The Annoyed Man]

I also sent an e-mail to their PR department at pr@bigtex.com outlining my concerns and some of yours. I included TAM's 6 questions. I hope you didn't mind TAM. Maybe more of us could express our concerns to this office?

I don't mind at all. Please use them at will.

[gemini]

Thanks for the heads up. So far, I have not been contacted by WBAP or Mark Davis for this reason.
Maybe it will just be a topic of discussion for the call-in-public-at-large to state their opinions.
I will be listening. Thanks again.

I just heard on WBAP that Mark Davis will be discussing this topic on Monday morning. Hope you get a chance to tell your story to an even bigger audience. Without people like you, America would be in a far worse place. We need to take a lesson from Gemini. Stand up for your Rights and for what is Right. If we don’t take a stand now, we may lose this precious right all together. I’m behind you 100%.

[AEA]

My take on this is that the Fair Management have been against lawful carry of weapons at their venue from the very start of CHL in Texas.

They went so far as to advise their LEO security to enforce the policy of no guns (even for CHL's) during the last few years.

As I recall, it was brought to a head during the season last year and they gave in, in order not to loose revenue.

I suspect they have been actively working on some form of "policy" to discourage CHL holders since then and what we are seeing now is the result of their work.

Until it is shot down (no pun intended) once and for all, they will continue year by year to harass CHL holders who wish to attend the Fair.

A class action lawsuit against the Fair & Management on behalf of all CHL holders in the State of Texas sounds appropriate to me. With the right representation, it could succeed very well and send a needed message to others who try to circumvent State Law and our legal rights with regard to CHL.

[Brazos]

First, I want to say I support all of your efforts in edning this. I do not believe the State Fair Association has the right to collect this information against your will.

But, I do want to point out that they may be within their legal authority. They cannot deny you entrance to the fair because you are carrying, but they may (and I emphasize may, indicating possibility not certainty) be able to deny you entrance for failure to provide them with your name and address and CHL info. There is nothing in the law that I can find that forbids this collection of data or a 30.05 warning for criminal trespass for failure to cooperate.

The law on confidentiality only applies to DPS releasing the information. It does not pertain to the private organizations or you releasing the information. This is how it should be, with restrictions on what the government can do but not on individuals or businesses. Since State Fair of Texas is a private non-profit corporation that receives no government funding (according to their web site), the rules on the government should not apply to it.

So, how can they justify the 30.05 warning? Well, entry into a private event is always by some type of contract. In this case, part of the contract is that you provide them with certain information IF you are carrying a weapon by using a CHL (I wonder if they are copying down off duty cops info too). This may be the same under the law as requiring you to pay a fee for an entry ticket.

I disagree with them, but I can see where they could make a legal argument that would survive an initial court exam. This means we could be in for a fight that will not be resolved this year. I think that we need to get TSRA to start working on a permanent solution by drafting a bill that does make this information totally confidential.

This is going to sound like a smart aleck but not intended.

It is true the State Fair is not refusing entrance to the park but is placing conditions on one’s ability to enter. That is a problem and should make anyone who took high school civics cringe. The law is VERY clear where you can and cannot carry and specifically addresses amusement parks. The law imparts certain RIGHTS(and responsibilities) to the CHL holder. It does not specifically list every type of situation that may occur. The law assigns a RIGHT and anything that counters that specific RIGHT is not allowed.

If asked for personal information as a condition to enter the State Fair, at what point does one say "that is too much"? We may all have different opinions but the law does not allow for additional conditions and request for personal information.

What if they wanted your SSN? Still no problem?
What if they required your passport? Still no problem?
Financial records?
Medical release?
What if they told you to duck walk and squawk like a chicken?

Government Property/Private Agency Issue?

Would it be an issue if the North Texas Toll Authority demanded and gathered personal information as a condition to using our local toll roads while carrying? Forget the law and the right to carry in your vehicle. This is a private agency and they are not refusing your use of their road but are only placing conditions. Any issue?

How about the publically sponsored/privately managed festivals throughout Texas? Many held right on the county square. What conditions are acceptable?

I can think of several other examples but my point is - We should diligently oppose ALL attempts to erode our right to carry. Every one of them.

[The Annoyed Man]

He further stated that the information was being collected to help aid the Dallas Police should any issues arise. He said this would give them a list to know where to start looking. (I am not sure what that meant, but asking him wasn’t going to get me anywhere). He vaguely mentioned weapons being lost on rides and that although they had not yet had an “accidental discharge”, there were reports of some folks being alarmed by weapons not properly concealed. He mentioned several times that since there is such a large contingency of uniformed officers present that it was very unlikely I would need a “gun”.

OK, this guy is definitely a yutz with an agenda, but the truly disturbing part of this is the sharing of your CHL information with a 3rd party — the Dallas PD — without your permission, and without your having committed a crime. And once DPD has it, your information has gotten so far beyond your ability to control it... ...who knows what they'll do with it after the fair? The information will be out there, and you won't be able to ever ensure that it has been destroyed. That's just plain old dirty pool — with a vague stench of secret police stuff wafting around it. This information needs to be disseminated statewide. We may be only 1.5%-2% of the population, but that is still hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom are going to be attending the fair, and who are politically active. It may be too late to kill this policy this time, but not too late to kill it for next year. Because if they get away with it this year, it will be worse next year.

[AEA]

[chuckybrown]

As I've said in other posts, "Stand up, be a voice". I hope everyone on this forum calls all the individuals associated with this incident if they have the time. The whole reason the political minority is in control is because, in my humble opinion, the silence of the majority. I see hope in this forum, hope that says "we're tired of being quiet, and we're going to speak up now".

Always be polite, always be civil, but for God's sake, STAND UP for what is right......

[C-dub]

Looks like I'll have to get my little radio out and hope it works in my office Monday morning.