CHLer shootout with burger king robber

[gomowdude]

Update: For those of us carrying .380's --- yikes! CHL took 3 hits of .380 from robber, robber took unknown shots from glock 19 9mm. CHL lives, robber dies. You guys are right, tactically a disaster. I wouldn't speak to or otherwise engage the bad guy until I had him in my sights and could act before he reacted to any verbal warning. If he opted to turn and take aim at me, I would take the shot, hopefully faster than he could. Sounds like the CHL citizen lost this advantage, or was unable to gain one and it cost him 3 bullet wounds. Thankfully he stopped the attacker or he may have lost his life. Makes me think twice about owning a .380.... time to upgrade, sure is compact but has its limitations. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breakin ... 68765.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[LarryH]

Update: For those of us carrying .380's --- yikes! CHL took 3 hits of .380 from robber, robber took unknown shots from glock 19 9mm. CHL lives, robber dies. . . . snip . . . Makes me think twice about owning a .380.... time to upgrade, sure is compact but has its limitations.

Also notice where the good guy was wounded. Chest, shoulder, arm, only one possibly center-of-mass. Three shots COM, from a 380, could have put him down for the count. As always, bullet placement is as important as the size of the slug. IMHO YMMV

[PsychDiver]

I know some you commented on not Monday morning QBing this guy and I agree. However, the discussion of what he did or didn't do is one of the reasons I enjoy this forum. I don't know what I would do in his situation. And I haven't really thought it out. Oh, yes I have said I would do this or that. But when we discuss an actual incident I have to examine my own ethics, my understanding of the law and the different scenerios of what could happen. I learn so much from you and it helps me try to get a better concept of the consequences of what I may or may not do in the situation. I sure hope there are no long term medical problems for him. He was courageous.

[kirock7]

Update: For those of us carrying .380's --- yikes! CHL took 3 hits of .380 from robber, robber took unknown shots from glock 19 9mm. CHL lives, robber dies. . . . snip . . . Makes me think twice about owning a .380.... time to upgrade, sure is compact but has its limitations.

Also notice where the good guy was wounded. Chest, shoulder, arm, only one possibly center-of-mass. Three shots COM, from a 380, could have put him down for the count. As always, bullet placement is as important as the size of the slug. IMHO YMMV

Good point... and I wonder what type of bullets the perp was using. With a gun that cheap you might assume he was using cheap ammo. Maybe FMJ instead of personal defense ammo with hollow points? Could make a difference as well.

[seamusTX]

He was 18 years old, so he couldn't legally buy .380 ammo. He probably had to take whatever the local bootlegger was selling.

Wadcutters can do quite a bit of damage in .380, and they feed better more reliably than HP in some pistols.

I suspect that criminals don't know all that much about firearms, especially the young ones. Most are semi-literate, and they probably don't know many adults who have real knowledge.

- Jim

[stroo]

Shot placement had to be the key here. Of course if Landers had shot the guy while he was telling him to drop his weapon, he may not have been shot at all. Hard to tell for sure from this though. Maybe Landers hit the COM and the guy still was able to get off shots at Landers. Whatever the tactics, Landers should be praised for standing up and taking action.

[tfrazier]

Of course, we all know that the age of the BG in this incident must be wrong. After all, you have to be 21 in this country to own a handgun. If he was under 21 he wouldn't have had a handgun, right? If he did, then that law apparently doesn't work. Maybe there should be a law that makes it illegal to violate the law that makes it illegal for someone under 21 to have a handgun...

Or could it be that gun control laws only apply to non-criminals?

[seamusTX]

Of course, we all know that the age of the BG in this incident must be wrong. After all, you have to be 21 in this country to own a handgun.

No, you don't.

You have to be 21 or older to buy a handgun from an FFL or to buy handgun ammunition. It is not illegal for a person who is 18 to 20 to possess a handgun.

I doubt Florida makes it illegal for 18 to 20-year-olds. Their laws are similar to ours.

The guy was apparently convicted of felonies as a juvenile (I know juvenile courts use different language). It was illegal for him to possess a firearm or ammunition on that basis.

The question that the antis refuse to answer is why this guy was not in prison after multiple convictions for violent felonies.

- Jim

[flb_78]

Update: For those of us carrying .380's --- yikes! CHL took 3 hits of .380 from robber, robber took unknown shots from glock 19 9mm. CHL lives, robber dies. You guys are right, tactically a disaster. I wouldn't speak to or otherwise engage the bad guy until I had him in my sights and could act before he reacted to any verbal warning. If he opted to turn and take aim at me, I would take the shot, hopefully faster than he could. Sounds like the CHL citizen lost this advantage, or was unable to gain one and it cost him 3 bullet wounds. Thankfully he stopped the attacker or he may have lost his life. Makes me think twice about owning a .380.... time to upgrade, sure is compact but has its limitations. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breakin ... 68765.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My .380 with hollowpoints suits me just fine. Most likely, the deceased was using FMJ ammo and not HP's. I'll bet ya the CHL had HP's. This is more of a difference in bullet design and shooting proficiency then caliber.

[tfrazier]

No, you don't...
The question that the antis refuse to answer is why this guy was not in prison after multiple convictions for violent felonies.

- Jim

Okay, it was a tongue in cheek attempt at sarcastic humor, and the statement was intended to be non-factual and ridiculous. And you are 100% correct.

[CHLSteve]

My $.02 (that's why we're all here anyway, right?)

I would not have done what this man did, but I'm glad another BG is off the street.

Personally, it would have to be either:

A) Hold my gun in a ready position, and wait for the threat to leave. If he gets away with some money, so be it. If he turns to me or my way, I may have to get involved.

B) Fire on the perp as soon as possible--without warning if that's within the law. I don't see how "asking" or "arguing" with him to put his gun down was a prudent move.

So my preference is not to get involved at all, but if I do, it will be suddenly and without any warning.

[gemini]

The only thing I would add, is to find cover first for tacticle advantage if possible. Then.......

My $.02 (that's why we're all here anyway, right?)
.................
B) Fire on the perp as soon as possible--without warning if that's within the law. I don't see how "asking" or "arguing" with him to put his gun down was a prudent move.

So my preference is not to get involved at all, but if I do, it will be suddenly and without any warning.

........

[ClarkLZeuss]

Man, this situation has given me a lot to think about! I, too, carry 9mm and probably would demand the BG disarm before I shoot. Maybe I'll have to rethink those options! Then again, the GG lived, as has been said. What's crazy to think about, though, is all of this happened "within seconds" according to the article. BG walks in, pulls his gun, and within seconds the GG is engaging him. Seconds later, it's all over. Everything happens in less than one minute. That's hardly any time to think! Which tells me that what this all comes down to is how you mentally prepare yourself before ever getting into this kind of situation, like we all do...running different scenarios through the mind.

If any security cam videos or photos of this are made available, that would really help to analyze this situation better. What I wonder about is where was the GG in relation to the BG? It would make sense to me that they were facing each other, like the GG was in line when the BG came to the cash register. That would explain how the GG got shot three times. Ideally, you could be behind the BG, demand he surrender, and then you'd have some warning (him turning) before you could shoot him. It seems like the BG shot the GG first. That's quite a bit of stamina on part of the GG!

[beccasgrandpa]

First time on this newly discovered forum so if I say something that's already been said, forgive the rookie. I have read a lot of these threads just not all of them and I am very happy to LEARN from others. I have to agree with the last guy here to say it's really going to be important that you have thought this through in great detail so you can attempt to use that thinking/training should you find yourself in this position.

I would also have to say, IF POSSIBLE, I would ready my gun and watch. IF the BG fires, I drop him like a bad habit. If he takes some cash and leaves, I let him. If he makes any threatening move toward ANY person in my view or much less ME or my family, I'm not going to take the time to say FREEZE, STOP, etc., I'm going to try to place two quick shots in the main body mass.

I drive quite a bit and while driving alone, I think through and even try to act out exactly what I would say and do in a variety of situations like this. Nothing is going to totally prepare you for every situation you may face but make up your mind NOW, what your FIRST move is going to be and then the next TWO moves. First is most important of course but the reason you do TWO after that is any action is going to bring action from your perp.

IF you are carrying, you have already made the decision to be a sheep dog and not a sheep so next you have to decide how far you are willing to go when the activity may not be directed AT you. You also have to make up your mind what is important enough that you are willing to take a human life.

I was challenged by a good friend of mine, who is a police officer, to ask yourself this question. "if you can make a point of no return type commitment like this? IF I pull my gun, I'm going to Kill someone. He made that commitment so he wouldn't be tempted to pull his gun to "threat" or intimidate someone, etc. He says he will ONLY pull it to SHOOT someone. I'm not ready to make that commitment yet but it is a challenging question to ask yourself.

It's wise for all of us to spend this time reading, studying, learning, listening, asking, preparing so that should that time come, you act more out of instinct than fear.

I also strongly believe that since getting my CHL a couple years ago, it didn't make me more eager to use my gun, it made me LESS eager to use a gun. It gave me a greater feeling of responsibility and conscience than maybe I would have before. I also think through every time I walk into a restaurant where I'm going to sit (if it's my choice), direct the server if I don't like the one I'm about to get, and then NEVER sit with my back to the door again. I'm not paranoid, I'm prepared.