carrying reloads

[skankpile]

I’m Puzzled…

I reload for my 9, 40 & 45 and I use Speer gold dots. I can load up 100 gold dots in 9mm for less then target ammo. If I buy the factory hollow points they cost about $1 per. round.

In TX is it seen as a negative if its found out you used reloads in defense?

I don't understand the negative view as they are definitely not at +P pressures. And, I feel more comfortable with my standard pressure hollow points knowing they will likely stop at what they hit without over penetrating.

[WildBill]

The "negative view" from some people is that they think a DA will accuse you of using special "killer bullets" if you use handloads. There was one report of this happening, but I don't think it was in Texas.

I would not carry reloads that were purchased from someone else, because of reliability concerns. If you are comfortable carrying [your own] reloads, I can't think of a reason that you shouldn't.

I just remembered a concern that Charles Cotton brings up at his Deadly Force Seminars, and that is of forensics. If you are using factory loads, the crime scene technicians may be able to provide better ballastics evidence.

[DoubleJ]

if you are justified in shooting, this fact should not come to light during any type of Grand Jury experience.
I honestly don't even know how they would ever find out that the ammo was reloaded, as opposed to factory loaded.
if it goes beyond the GJ, you may have to consider your justification in the whole, but what you shoot, still, should have no bearing at all. A good attorney (I know a guy down in Houston ) should be able to negate any attempts to use "reloads" as anything other than a method of being frugal.

most folk would warn agains reloads due to the "human error" factor, but only you know how careful you are when reloading.
(I'm thinking of double charges and things of that nature.)

me, I like my +P loaded ammo because I believe that the higher muzzle velocity will help the bullet pass through any barriers, and still retain enough momentum to fully expand. but once again, that's just me.

The case that WildBill is referencing (I believe) was in Arizona, and involved a guy shooting a 10mm. The DA said he chose a "man-killer" round, or some such nonsense. the gentleman did not have adequate representation or that viewpoint would have shown to been without merit.

[WildBill]

The case that WildBill is referencing (I believe) was in Arizona, and involved a guy shooting a 10mm. The DA said he chose a "man-killer" round, or some such nonsense. the gentleman did not have adequate representation or that viewpoint would have shown to been without merit.

Thanks, DoubleJ, that's the one I was thinking about.

[DoubleJ]

It's a team effort around here! Jim was benevolent enough to remind me of the name of the gentleman.
Harold Fish. look that case up, if you wanna cry yourself to sleep tonight

I believe Massad Ayoob has written a few articles for ol' Combat Handguns (or one ah dem dare mags) that has dealt with the ol' caliber and/or hand load "urban myth."
I still think the whole thing about hand loads comes back to reliability. if you're confident in the QC of your ammo, well, I think you're halfway home.

[AJSully421]

a justified shooting is a justified shooting. as long as you are justified to the letter under PC section 9, it does not really matter if you use your own loads, a heavily modified handgun, or your legally obtained artillery piece... deadly force is deadly force. where you might get into trouble is if "the gun goes off".

[Frost]

I believe the main concern about reloads is that your reload may have a different powder burn pattern or something then factory ammo and in a questionable shooting story may not match the "evidence."

I don't reload, but if i did i would use standard powders in standard amounts and not worry about it.

[Excaliber]

I believe the main concern about reloads is that your reload may have a different powder burn pattern or something then factory ammo and in a questionable shooting story may not match the "evidence."

I don't reload, but if i did i would use standard powders in standard amounts and not worry about it.

The forensic effect here is called "gunshot residue" or "powder stippling" or "powder tattooing" which consists of marks made by burning powder on the clothing or skin of the person who was shot. It consists of burns, soot, and pock marks made by incompletely burned powder particles. You can google these terms to see examples in autopsy photos if you have a strong stomach.

The pattern can be used to establish the distance between the shooter and shootee at the moment the shot was fired. With factory ammo, cartridges from the same factory lot fired from the same gun can be used for comparison purposes to determine the diameter of the pattern at various distances and thus establish a standard for the incident under investigation.

Establishing which "lot" a handloaded round may have come from may be much more problematical, and questions here may cast doubt on elements in the defender's account of how the incident occurred.

For consistency, reliability, and forensic considerations, I would highly recommend using only factory ammo for defensive purposes.

[stroo]

The situation Mas Ayoob wrote about was a case in which a husband claimed his wife committed suicide using his handgun with handloaded self defense rounds. According the husbands reloading notes, the gunshot residue would indicate that the gun was fired at close range, well within the reach of the wife if shooting herself. The prosecution argued that the court could not trust the husband's hand reloading notes and with powder loadings that would be expected in self defense rounds, the gunshot residue would indicate a firing distance greater than the reach of the wife; i.e. she could not have shot herself. The court bought the prosecutor's argument and the husband was convicted of murder.

[WildBill]

The situation Mas Ayoob wrote about was a case in which a husband claimed his wife committed suicide using his handgun with handloaded self defense rounds. According the husbands reloading notes, the gunshot residue would indicate that the gun was fired at close range, well within the reach of the wife if shooting herself. The prosecution argued that the court could not trust the husband's hand reloading notes and with powder loadings that would be expected in self defense rounds, the gunshot residue would indicate a firing distance greater than the reach of the wife; i.e. she could not have shot herself. The court bought the prosecutor's argument and the husband was convicted of murder.

I haven't read Ayoob's article, but is this an instance of a person getting convicted because he used handloads, or because he killed his wife?

[HankB]

I'm old enough to remember when handloading was the only way to get good terminal ballistics - for example, at one time a 148 HBWC seated backwards atop a hefty powder charge was considered to be the "ultimate" load for a .38 Special snubnose.

Today, several decades after Super-Vel set the ammo world on fire, there are PLENTY of good loads available. IMHO using premium loads from ANY of the major ammo manufacturers will get you all the terminal performance that cartridge is capable of. I personally use factory loads in my carry guns . . . but wouldn't hesitate to use my own handloads if I ran short of factory ammo.

From a legal standpoint . . . IANAL, but in TX, if you're involved in a shoot, it's my understanding that the circumstances of the the shoot itself determine whether or not you land in legal hot water, not the ammo you used.

Note that ANY ammo can be argued to be an "evil" choice by an unscrupulous DA.

* Handload, and regular ammo isn't deadly enough for you.
* Use hollowpoints, and you're using "Dum-dum ammo, outlawed by the Hague Accords."
* Use FMJ, and you're using military warfighting ammo, suitable only for the battlefield.
* Use the same ammo as local or Federal police, and you're a cop wannabe poser.

etc. etc.

One further thought: the issue of forensics was brought up. If your ammo can't be tested to clear you, it can't be tested to hang you, either.

[Stupid]

Technically and mostly of the time, as I am not a lawyer and has Stupid as my forum name, from what I read, the type of weapon should not become even a concern in justified shooting. However, it can get muddy as Mas Ayoob frequently indicates. Read his book "In The Gravest Extreme." Great book and I think every CHLer must read it.

I would suggest that you load your reload to the same specification as one of the premium self-defense factory ammo of your preference. Practice with your reload, but carry factory - this is what i plan to do. A concern with this practice is safety. Most handguns, correct me if i am wrong, are not suitable to shoot +P loads for extended period. With reused brass, it's better to stay on the safe side.

Be safe and carry factory ammo.

[bdickens]

With factory ammo that is one less thing that you and your lawyer will have to fight should it come down to that. Yes, a justifiable shooting is a justifiable shooting and the weapon or the ammo shouldn't play into it, but why even have to deal with it in the first place.

Harold Fish's lawyer was an incompetent boob.

[stroo]

Wildbill
"I haven't read Ayoob's article, but is this an instance of a person getting convicted because he used handloads, or because he killed his wife?"

I agree that it could be seen either way. But Ayoob presented it as the husband was innocent and he was convicted because of the handloads.

[Mike1951]

I would suggest that you load your reload to the same specification as one of the premium self-defense factory ammo of your preference. Practice with your reload, but carry factory

Perhaps the best suggestion of all!