In many US airports, guns are OK outside security

[09BLACKR1]

ATLANTA - Flying in the U.S. has been transformed since Sept. 11, with passengers forced to remove their shoes, take out their laptop computers and put liquids and gels in clear plastic bags. Yet it's perfectly legal to take a loaded gun right up to the security checkpoint at some of the nation's biggest airports.
An Associated Press survey of the 20 busiest U.S. airports found that seven of them — Philadelphia, Detroit, Phoenix, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Dallas/Fort Worth, Los Angeles and San Francisco — let people with gun permits carry firearms in the general public areas of the terminal.

Some anti-terrorism experts say that is a glaring security loophole that could endanger airport workers, passengers and people waiting to pick them up or see them off. Some suggest that allowing guns in terminals is practically asking for them to be smuggled aboard a plane.

"If your airport is not secure, then the security of your airplanes is jeopardized," said Rafi Ron, former security chief at Ben Gurion Airport in Israel who now works as an aviation consultant. "You cannot separate the two."

Other authorities say the nonsecure areas of the terminal are no different from other public venues and do not warrant special restrictions.

"It's really not more of a concern than at a mall or a train station," said Philadelphia police Lt. Louis Liberati.

Under federal law, it is illegal everywhere to try to carry a gun through a security checkpoint. The rest of the terminal, however, has long been the domain of state and local authorities.

Jon Allen, a spokesman for the federal Transportation Security Administration, said the TSA has not taken a position on guns in airports and has no authority under federal law to ban them.

The issue has led to clash in Georgia between a new state law that allows guns on public transportation and the Atlanta airport's ban on loaded weapons. Last month, a federal judge dismissed a lawsuit brought against the city by a gun rights group. At an earlier hearing, he warned that guns at the world's busiest airport could pose a "serious threat to public safety and welfare." The gun group has appealed.

Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, was surprised to learn that airports have been allowing weapons for years, and warned that Congress could move to ban the practice. In a July letter to TSA, Thompson called guns in terminals "a threat to the safety of airline travelers."

However, even at those airports that ban guns, officials are not frisking people or using metal detectors on them as they enter the terminal. Experts say an additional layer of security like that would be unworkable at America's bustling airports.

In 2002, an Egyptian immigrant killed two people and wounded several others near a ticket counter at the Los Angeles airport before he was shot to death by an El Al Israel Airlines security guard.

Some gun owners who take their weapons to the airport cite the need for protection. Others carry a gun frequently and say they do not want to be bothered finding a place to stash it if they go to the airport.

Joel Rosenberg, a firearms instructor in Minneapolis, said he regularly carries a gun to the city's airport and has not heard of any problems caused by the policy.

"People who are law-abiding are going to be law-abiding whether they have a .38 snubby on their hip or not," he said.

Some airports that allow the guns say they are trying to accommodate the culture of their patrons.

"We like our guns in Michigan," said Scott Wintner, a spokesman for Detroit Metro Airport.

Similarly, Brian Murnahan, spokesman for the Dallas-Fort Worth airport, said his airport's policy is driven by pragmatism: Texans often carry guns. "While we certainly don't encourage people to bring guns to the airport, we are trying to be reasonable," he said.

The state's other major airport has a strict no-guns ordinance.

"It's posted everywhere," said Marlene McClinton of Houston-George Bush Intercontinental Airport. "But this is Texas," she said, explaining that the airport has cited some visitors for violations. Unlawful carrying of a weapon is a misdemeanor in Texas, punishable by up to a year in jail and a $4,000 fine.

Gun rights supporters say law-abiding citizens with guns could fire back and cut short a gunman's rampage. But Ron, the Israeli security expert, said the last thing airport security agents need is a hail of bullets and no idea who the bad guy is.

"That leads to chaos," he said, "and that can lead to tragedy."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081015/ap_ ... ports_guns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[anygunanywhere]

This could be the next gun crisis.

Anygunanywhere

[shootthesheet]

Since this topic has been written about in articles for years I would say is has not worked and won't. I think that is true for the same reason CHL has worked. People don't see those guns. Even if they know they are there they don't see them or sign of them. People understand that anyone could be armed to include themselves should they one day choose to do so. That is why this sort of thing doesn't work. It isn't that most people want a CHL now. They do want the choice and to be able to get one should they want to in the future. We need to remind them of that in order to fight the sort of attack this article represents.

[wileyj]

So, with the following statement:
The state's other major airport has a strict no-guns ordinance.
"It's posted everywhere," said Marlene McClinton of Houston-George Bush Intercontinental Airport. "But this is Texas," she said, explaining that the airport has cited some visitors for violations. Unlawful carrying of a weapon is a misdemeanor in Texas, punishable by up to a year in jail and a $4,000 fine.
does this mean the GBIA is properly marked 30.06?
I have not been tot he airport in a while but I do not remember seeing valid 30.06 signs. I do not fly if at all possible (well maybe if my mother was real sick) but I sometimes pick up my mother or sister in baggage claim.
Interesting
Thanks
..wiley

[LarryH]

does this mean the GBIA is properly marked 30.06?

I'm wondering about that, too. I need to pick up my mom and sister-in-law at Bush tomorrow.

[KBCraig]

ATLANTA - Flying in the U.S. has been transformed since Sept. 11, with passengers forced to remove their shoes, take out their laptop computers and put liquids and gels in clear plastic bags. Yet it's perfectly legal to take a loaded gun right up to the security checkpoint at some of the nation's biggest airports.

I do believe that's the reason for having a security checkpoint in the first place, isn't it? Secure on the inside, not on the outside?

Some anti-terrorism experts say that is a glaring security loophole that could endanger airport workers, passengers and people waiting to pick them up or see them off. Some suggest that allowing guns in terminals is practically asking for them to be smuggled aboard a plane.

O noes!!!111!! We better make the whole terminal off limits!

But... then guns in the parking lot will be "practically asking for them to be smuggled aboard a plane." Better ban them from the parking lot, too. But then what about the road leading to the airport? Or passing next door? People living within five miles? Just to be safe, we better ban all guns from any state with an airport, eh?

[mr.72]

snipped story full of misinformation

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081015/ap_ ... ports_guns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What a bunch of bunk.

These are not animate guns walking themselves into the airport terminals. These are holders of state-issued licenses carrying guns legally into a public venue like they do every day.

Of course I am preaching to the choir.

[GrillKing]

does this mean the GBIA is properly marked 30.06?

I'm wondering about that, too. I need to pick up my mom and sister-in-law at Bush tomorrow.

Even if posted 30.06, should it matter? I assume the airport is owned by a governmental entity (City of Houston??). If so, have people actually been arrested, as the GBIA rep indicated, for UCW, while carrying legally concealed.

This disturbs me.....

[barres]

So, with the following statement:
The state's other major airport has a strict no-guns ordinance.
"It's posted everywhere," said Marlene McClinton of Houston-George Bush Intercontinental Airport. "But this is Texas," she said, explaining that the airport has cited some visitors for violations. Unlawful carrying of a weapon is a misdemeanor in Texas, punishable by up to a year in jail and a $4,000 fine.
does this mean the GBIA is properly marked 30.06?
I have not been tot he airport in a while but I do not remember seeing valid 30.06 signs. I do not fly if at all possible (well maybe if my mother was real sick) but I sometimes pick up my mother or sister in baggage claim.
Interesting
Thanks
..wiley

From the Houston Airport System website:

Our city's largest airport, George Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH), joined the Houston Airport System in June 1969.

Bush Intercontinental is located approximately 23 miles north of downtown Houston, near the Sam Houston Tollway (Beltway 8 North)

The airport is operated and maintained by the City of Houston Department of Aviation. The Houston Airport System functions as an enterprise fund and does not burden the local tax base for airport operations, maintenance or capital improvements.

THe Houston Airport System is a department of the City of Houston. The Airport Manager and Customer Service Manager are employees of the City of Houston. I think it's pretty clear that the airport is owned or leased by a government entity, so, even if there were 30.06 signs, they would not be enforceable. I would say carry on, but, as always, keep it concealed.

Besides, since the law makes no distinction of how your handgun is carried on or about your person, having it in your suitcase to check for a flight would make you in violation of 30.06, if it were valid, would it not?

[Kythas]

"It's posted everywhere," said Marlene McClinton of Houston-George Bush Intercontinental Airport. "But this is Texas," she said, explaining that the airport has cited some visitors for violations. Unlawful carrying of a weapon is a misdemeanor in Texas, punishable by up to a year in jail and a $4,000 fine.

This line leads me to believe they're talking about PC 30.05, which is Criminal Trespass. However, the following would be the part to keep in mind for CHL holders:


§ 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS.
(a) A person commits an offense if he enters or remains on or in property, including an aircraft or other vehicle, of another without effective consent or he enters or remains in a building of another without effective consent and he:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.
(2) "Notice" means:
(A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;
(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;
(D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are:
(i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
(ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and
(iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than:
(a) 100 feet apart on forest land; or
(b) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or
(E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry.
(3) "Shelter center" has the meaning assigned by Section 51.002, Human Resources Code.
(4) "Forest land" means land on which the trees are potentially valuable for timber products.
(5) "Agricultural land" has the meaning assigned by Section 75.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code.
(6) "Superfund site" means a facility that:
(A) is on the National Priorities List established under Section 105 of the federal Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980 (42
U.S.C. Section 9605); or
(B) is listed on the state registry established under Section 361.181, Health and Safety Code.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor at the time of the offense was a fire fighter or emergency medical services personnel, as that term is defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty under exigent circumstances.
(d) An offense under Subsection (e) is a Class C misdemeanor unless it is committed in a habitation or unless the actor carries a deadly weapon on or about the actor's person during the commission of the offense, in which event it is a Class A misdemeanor. An offense under Subsection (a) is a Class B misdemeanor, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if:
(1) the offense is committed:
(A) in a habitation or a shelter center; or
(B) on a Superfund site; or
(2) the actor carries a deadly weapon on or about his person during the commission of the offense.
(e) A person commits an offense if without express consent or if without authorization provided by any law, whether in writing or other form, the person:
(1) enters or remains on agricultural land of another;
(2) is on the agricultural land and within 100 feet of the boundary of the land when apprehended; and
(3) had notice that the entry was forbidden or received notice to depart but failed to do so.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

But, as they say: You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride!

[GrillKing]

My bad. I forgot, this is Houston. State law doesn't apply.....

[Charles L. Cotton]

The last time I was at Houston Intercontinental Airport (Bush), there were no 30.06 signs. As noted, it's government property and 30.06 signs are not enforceable.

Chas.

[FlynJay]

This is total crap, more antagonism from the anti-groups.

Unlawful carrying of a weapon is a misdemeanor in Texas, punishable by up to a year in jail and a $4,000 fine

This is the only statement that I like because it calms the sheeple but has no effect on use because we are lawfully carrying.

[GrillKing]

The last time I was at Houston Intercontinental Airport (Bush), there were no 30.06 signs. As noted, it's government property and 30.06 signs are not enforceable.

Chas.

True, it is not suppose to be enforceable, but the spokesperson implied they have and do enforce it. Whether that's 30.05 or 30.06, I don't know, but it was clear that they will enforce their "no guns ordinance". Has anyone actually been arrested while legally carrying concealed at GBIA?

[mr.72]

Has anyone actually been arrested while legally carrying concealed at GBIA?

For that matter, I would like to hear about anybody actually being arrested for carrying in any improperly-posted 30.06 establishment.

Always looking for the proverbial test case.

My suspicion is that if you carry past an invalid 30.06 sign at the airport, and then somehow you are unfortunate enough to raise the attention of the authorities, then you are going to be arrested, and somehow they will find something to charge you with that will stick. Alternatively you would spend a lot of time in holding cells and courtrooms and a lot of money on lawyers rather than ammo and overpriced holsters in order to get the charges dropped. I have no legitimate evidence to back any of this up, just a gut feeling. I would sincerely like to see any evidence regarding these types of incidents.

Take for example the case of the guy who was arrested for legally transporting his guns in a Denver hotel because Pelosi Almighty happened to be staying there.

The axiom about beating the rap vs. beating the ride aside, I think you may not beat the rap either.