Gun Shows and CHL

[anygunanywhere]

Since Minute Maid park, Toyota Center, and all of the high end yuppie condos in the area have been built HPD has had a higher presence in the area.

We wouldn't want to drive away all of that tax revenue with rapes and robberies.

Anygunanywhere

[aardwolf]

If the last time you were at the George R. Brown Convention Center was ten years ago, you would not recognize the place new. I was there last week. I was outdoors for several hours, and I think I was in sight of a bicycle or mounted police officer the entire time.

That area used to be thick with homeless people. I saw only a few, and they kept moving.

- Jim

I always wondered why they built Enron Field down the street from the Star of Hope Mission. I guess the property was cheap.

[seamusTX]

I think it was part of a strategy to revitalize that part of downtown Houston, which was a scary place in the 1990s. When the land values go up, things like shelters and flophouses tend to relocate. The strategy seems to have worked.

- Jim

[stoneface]

Just to try my hand at a bit of legal reasoning . . .

Keith B said he thought if you unload, put it back in the holster and conceal, you are technically breaking the 30.06.

Here's my thought: At that point, I am not carrying under the authority of my CHL. I am lawfully transporting an unloaded firearm to and from a place of sale or purchase. I don't remember there being a requirement that the gun be visible when I take it to or from the gun shop, so I don't see any problem with transporting it in a holster (unless there is a requirement that it be unloaded and in a locked case--if there is, I missed it). I don't see why gun shows would be any different. I do the same thing when visiting the holster shop in town. I unload in the car (not required to, but out of courtesy and safety for those in the shop when trying on holsters), leave my gun in the holster, go inside, and try on others.

I'm throwing this out there for critique, so if I've missed something please point it out.

[elwood blooz]

I hate leaving my weapon in the truck but I knew the show would be posted yesterday so I took my clips with me. At least that way if a BG broke into my truck it would just be something to throw at someone, so to speak.

OOOOHH, the grammar police are going to get you for calling them clips! Why didnt you carry the gun with you empty?

I can't believe I said that word either.( Sitting here red from embarrassment.)

[Mike1951]

A few years ago, they began construction of a 12 acre park across the street from GRB. It appears to be open now. There was supposed to be an underground parking area for the park. I've seen no evidence of it.

The park might be considered to have upgraded the neighborhood but the ultimate effect of the loss of 12 acres of parking is to guarantee that you walk an extra 4-6 blocks.

Considering the competition for parking on game days and the premium rates charged then makes it wise to check team schedules before going to GRB or go very early.

However, when the adjacent parking was lost to the park, vendors immediately went to $10 for all parking. In the time since, parking has reverted to $7 in many lots.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Just to try my hand at a bit of legal reasoning . . .

Keith B said he thought if you unload, put it back in the holster and conceal, you are technically breaking the 30.06.

Here's my thought: At that point, I am not carrying under the authority of my CHL. I am lawfully transporting an unloaded firearm to and from a place of sale or purchase. I don't remember there being a requirement that the gun be visible when I take it to or from the gun shop, so I don't see any problem with transporting it in a holster (unless there is a requirement that it be unloaded and in a locked case--if there is, I missed it). I don't see why gun shows would be any different. I do the same thing when visiting the holster shop in town. I unload in the car (not required to, but out of courtesy and safety for those in the shop when trying on holsters), leave my gun in the holster, go inside, and try on others.

I'm throwing this out there for critique, so if I've missed something please point it out.

IANAL, but AFAIK, TX law makes no distinction between loaded and unloaded handguns. If you are carrying the gun on your person, you had better be on your own property, or in your car, or have a CHL. Otherwise you are carrying unlawfully.

If the gun is where you cannot readily access it, such as in a locked case of some sort, then it isn't considered to be "on or about your person". So in that case, it is legal to transport it.

The law was not intended to apply to people looking over or handling guns in gun stores, so it is not enforced that way. (A gun show is the legal equivalent of a giant gun store.)

Furthermore, I don't think you get to pick which "authority" you are carrying under in any given situation. While I don't think there is any case law (yet), I think that if you have a CHL and are carrying a handgun, you are carrying it under the authority of your CHL by default.

If the place is posted 30.06, and you carry a handgun in there, on or about your person, loaded or not, I think you are violating the law unless you fully comply with the venue operator's conditions for entry (i.e. having the gun zip tied, etc.).

[Tactical_Texan_CHL]

I have a supply of zip ties in my truck all the time. They're the handiest darn things! Next time I go to a gun show that's posted, I think I'll just disarm in my truck, stick the mags in my pocket, and zip tie my gun right there. It's no different than carrying a gun I'm intending to trade around the gun show, even though I'm not considering trading it off. That way, when I'm all done and back in my truck, I'll pop off the zip ties, load up, and reholster. Nothing was left in the truck while unattended, and no rules violated. Sound like a plan?

[Mike1951]

I have a supply of zip ties in my truck all the time. They're the handiest darn things! Next time I go to a gun show that's posted, I think I'll just disarm in my truck, stick the mags in my pocket, and zip tie my gun right there. It's no different than carrying a gun I'm intending to trade around the gun show, even though I'm not considering trading it off. That way, when I'm all done and back in my truck, I'll pop off the zip ties, load up, and reholster. Nothing was left in the truck while unattended, and no rules violated. Sound like a plan?

Except for being unprotected between your truck and the show.

[Tactical_Texan_CHL]

Hmm. That's true. Maybe if the door to the area the gun show is posted, but not the whole building, you could carry into the building, go to a bathroom once inside, and then disarm and zip tie in a stall? Then you could go into the posted area? Then reverse the procedure on the way out so you're protected back to your vehicle? I dunno. I'm only anticipating just in case. I've never been to an actually posted gun show before. I went to the Ft. Worth gun show once before it was actually posted 30.06, so it wasn't an issue. I disarmed then, but only because I was with my Mom and she asked the officers at the desk where they were zip tying guns if it applied to CHL's too. They said yes, so she said very loudly to me, "You have to come over here so they can zip tie your gun." Thanks, Ma! But no need to rehash that whole Ft. Worth gun show thread. We've already been there, done that awhile ago!

[function12]

Thanks for all the responses. I did the superman thing in the elevator.
When the officer asked if I had any ammo, I just did not answer and moved on down the line. When I left the show. I removed the zip tie. Found the elevator and road it to the second floor. During the ride up I inserted the mag and holstered my pistol. On they way down, I was concealed and ready to walk safely back to my car.

[rm9792]

Just to try my hand at a bit of legal reasoning . . .

IANAL, but AFAIK, TX law makes no distinction between loaded and unloaded handguns. If you are carrying the gun on your person, you had better be on your own property, or in your car, or have a CHL. Otherwise you are carrying unlawfully.

If the gun is where you cannot readily access it, such as in a locked case of some sort, then it isn't considered to be "on or about your person". So in that case, it is legal to transport it.

The law was not intended to apply to people looking over or handling guns in gun stores, so it is not enforced that way. (A gun show is the legal equivalent of a giant gun store.)

Furthermore, I don't think you get to pick which "authority" you are carrying under in any given situation. While I don't think there is any case law (yet), I think that if you have a CHL and are carrying a handgun, you are carrying it under the authority of your CHL by default.

If the place is posted 30.06, and you carry a handgun in there, on or about your person, loaded or not, I think you are violating the law unless you fully comply with the venue operator's conditions for entry (i.e. having the gun zip tied, etc.).

No there is no distinction on ammo other than the child access clause. But there is the distinction that GRB is city property and GRB rules actually forbid banning of chl. Someone posted the contract rules once for vendors. But i have presented for the silly zip tie and on every occasion i reconceal in front of at least 2 cops and never a word is said. But if you want to ignore the city property thing then carry concealed to the door, get zipped then flip your shirt on the inside of the holster and Open Carry past the door while inside. It is a gun show and that would be allowed.

[frankie_the_yankee]

No there is no distinction on ammo other than the child access clause. But there is the distinction that GRB is city property and GRB rules actually forbid banning of chl. Someone posted the contract rules once for vendors.

I would be very interested to see this link.

You may be aware that it is my position that regardless of whether or not there is a government entity in the chain of ownership, if a private business is leasing the facility (whether to stage an event or leasing it on a long term basis), they may enforceably post it 30.06 if they choose, provided that there is nothing in the terms of their lease that forbid them to so post it. In other words, I believe that the people controlling access to the facility at the moment, who hire the security, etc., are the ones who may post it or not, regardless if the government actually owns the land or building in fee simple.

Others (almost everyone else on this forum) take the opposite position - that if there is a government entity anywhere in the chain of ownership, the law prohibits posting the property.

All I know it that many leasees of government-owned facilities do post them 30.06 and they do enforce it. And that there is no case law to guide us as to whether this is legally correct or not - at lease not yet.

Now I had not been aware that GRB had contract rules for vendors that prohibited them from posting 30.06. If correct, this would be an example of what I referred to above, a case where the terms of the lease prohibited the leasee from posting the facility. I would be very interested to see these rules for myself, so if you or anyone has the link handy, please re-post it or point to it.

[rm9792]

Believe me I know the feeling of swimming upstream on this board. I will see if i can find the rules posting.

[rm9792]

http://www.houstonconventionctr.com/mee ... itions.pdf


THE STATE OF TEXAS §
COUNTY OF HARRIS §
GEORGE R. BROWN CONVENTION CENTER
LICENSE AGREEMENT STANDARD TERMS AND CONDITIONS

23. CONCEALED HANDGUNS. Possession of firearms is forbidden in the Facility with the exception of the following: (i) licensed peace officers and licensed honorably retired peace officers and (ii) exhibitors and patrons during duly licensed gun shows and (iii) individuals licensed by the State of Texas to carry concealed handguns.

I win. This is from their own website.