Martial Arts

[OverEasy]

It's pretty much agreed that a gun is not always the first or best choice for self defence?
I have a cell phone, OC spray and an assisted opening folding knife.
So, how about martial arts? To defend against a knife attack where the BG is closer than 21 feet.

Now, here is MY question:
I'm past my prime, have a herniated disc(L4-L5) that can put me out of comission if I bend wrong and another herniated disc in my neck(S7?) that was operated on but has left me with some weakness in my right arm and hand. Should I even think about looking for any training in hand to hand combat? I think some of you out there are instructors but I can't remember who.

OK, now that you have stopped laughing. Anybody got a serious answer?................,OE

[CodeJockey]

I would be interested in this too. I have no health concerns such as herniated discs, but I'm fairly overweight, and I've been wanting to take up some form of martial arts (not just for the self-defense, but for mental and physical conditioning and focus). Should I try to lose the weight first and then look into it, or not? TIA!

[Liko81]

Most Jiu-Jitsu disciplines (aikido, judo, brazilian jiu-jitsu) as well as Krav Maga will teach you bare-handed counters to most weapons including knives and even handguns (if you're fast enough and the guy loses focus for a split second, you can disarm a person pointing a gun at your head rather easily). Many other disciplines also provide weapons training, but generally they assume a fair fight whether there are weapons involved or otherwise. For instance, karate as a self-defense course will incorporate barehanded takedowns and repulsion of attacks with a weapon, but on the whole it is virtually all punching and kicking and very little weapons-based offense or defense.

21 feet is forever in terms of knife attacks; your assailant must close to less than 5 feet to do damage with knife in hand. Granted, 16 feet can be covered pretty quickly. If you notice an impending attack with the assailant at 21 feet the very first thing you should do is run your butt off towards a populated area. Failing that, your forearm, despite the brachial artery, is an effective "sword"; you can use it to parry knife attacks away from yourself, close distance and body slam, grapple or punch/kick. No street fight is fair or honorable; you fight to win. It's a little known fact that kicking a girl in the groin is only slightly less effective than the same move on a guy, and it's highly recommended regardless of the circumstances. Yank hair, grab their windpipe and squeeze or try to pull it out of the neck. Use your thumbs and fingers to gouge eyes, rip off ears, bite off fingers, ears or noses, do whatever it takes to cause as much pain and incapacitation as it takes to make your assailant stop.

After a couple intense training sessions (3-4 hours a day) in a self-defense course, covering basic principles like how to throw a punch or put someone in a wrist lock, you would have the skill to aquit yourself well against any one assailant provided you are aware enough to be facing them and expecting their attack. It's then a matter of knowing your surroundings; similar to CHL carry, the knowledge of a martial art requires a heightened awareness in order to have as much lead time as possible in the case of an attack. A person in Condition Yellow should never be ambushed or jumped. And of course, the more you practice the moves correctly, the more muscle memory takes over to you can act on instinct instead of thinking about what you're doing. That makes you more able to react quickly to sudden changes, and also able to deal with multiple attackers as your body fights one person while your brain thinks about how to position yourself for the next incoming assailant.

[flintknapper]

I would be interested in this too. I have no health concerns such as herniated discs, but I'm fairly overweight, and I've been wanting to take up some form of martial arts (not just for the self-defense, but for mental and physical conditioning and focus). Should I try to lose the weight first and then look into it, or not? TIA!

Hi CJ,

Unless your weight is also associated with a heart condition or other serious physical limitation, I would not postpone looking into a martial art.

Of course, the better physical condition you are in, the more the instructors have to work with. But...don't let "less than ideal" weight stop you from going.

I recommend you visit several Dojo's and observe what they do. There are many types of martial arts and some are better suited to self defense (on the street/in real life) than are others.

Talk to the instructors about training you with consideration to your age, experience, physical condition and other special needs.

In other words....see if they will train you now (around your present abilities) rather than have you stand in the corner practicing mostly useless kata.

For 90% of us here, MA's that incorporate high kicks or a lot of grappling... will probably be less useful than those that teach moving off line, avoiding force on force (when possible), balance disruption, effective strikes, joint locks, weapons training (offensive/defensive).

We have had several "full size" students train with us long enough to become very respected and talented Martial Artist's. Not overnight obviously.

Seminars can be a good source of information, but the skills you learn MUST be practiced at home. You WILL NOT leave anyone's self defense seminar an instant expert, but most folks will take something useful home with them.

Anything you can add to your self protection program is a plus.

[flintknapper]

It's pretty much agreed that a gun is not always the first or best choice for self defence?
I have a cell phone, OC spray and an assisted opening folding knife.
So, how about martial arts? To defend against a knife attack where the BG is closer than 21 feet.

Now, here is MY question:
I'm past my prime, have a herniated disc(L4-L5) that can put me out of comission if I bend wrong and another herniated disc in my neck(S7?) that was operated on but has left me with some weakness in my right arm and hand. Should I even think about looking for any training in hand to hand combat? I think some of you out there are instructors but I can't remember who.

OK, now that you have stopped laughing. Anybody got a serious answer?................,OE

Hi there OE,

In view of your condition I recommend that you not pursue Martial Arts on a regular basis. The risk of injury and the consequences thereof are too great IMO.

I do think you could benefit from learning several techniques that would help "buy you time and distance" so that you can access a more effective weapon.

I commend you on your observation that immediate evasive action is often needed prior to reaching for something better suited to solving the problem.

To what degree you can successfully do this, depends largely upon physical constraints and more than a little "pre-thought".

I would consider your training needs to fall into the "one on one/personal instruction" category. Someone with ample time to consider all of your abilities or disabilities before training you is needed.

There is a lot that can be learned and put into practice that does not require great physical strength or agility. Most folks do not seek out MA training because they think it too rigorous (and it can be).

IMO, good concepts and principles are more important than any particular technique. Everyone can learn C&P and mindset.

[The Annoyed Man]

I'm past my prime, have a herniated disc(L4-L5) that can put me out of comission if I bend wrong and another herniated disc in my neck(S7?)...

Mah Brutha frum anutha mutha! I knew you were out there. I am also past my "sell by" date, had my vertebrae fused at L4/L5 and know exactly what you are talking about. A good martial arts teacher will not only help you to develop some hand to hand skills, but he/she will also be able to help you play to your own strengths instead of insisting that you try stuff you're no longer physically capable of doing. For instance, your days of doing high aerial spinning roundhouse kicks are probably behind you, but you can do amazing things with your hands in redirecting an opponent's energy against themselves. That would be more useful to someone in our condition than trying to make us into limber wall-climbing monkeys.

And if you gain some strength and flexibility in the process, then all the more power to you. My son and I studied under this guy back in California. Larry is a great teacher, and a really cool dude. My son is the kid on the far right of the top picture. Anyway, I highly recommend doing something like that. It will also help you develop your situational awareness further.

[smyrna]

It's pretty much agreed that a gun is not always the first or best choice for self defence?
I have a cell phone, OC spray and an assisted opening folding knife.
So, how about martial arts? To defend against a knife attack where the BG is closer than 21 feet.

Even for a martial artist, the knife situation is dicey at best. And, while I'm SURE there are those more skilled than I am, even after years of practice it is not an easy task...not at all like empty handed combat. Take a rubber or wooden knife and chalk the edge with colored carpenter's chalk. Find a friend you trust and have a little "knife fight". We used to do this as part of the MA training I was involved in. It was humbling for black belts to realize that although they could almost always outfight the unskilled empty handed, it was almost impossible for them to keep from getting "cut" as shown by the chalk.

Now, here is MY question:
I'm past my prime, have a herniated disc(L4-L5) that can put me out of comission if I bend wrong and another herniated disc in my neck(S7?) that was operated on but has left me with some weakness in my right arm and hand. Should I even think about looking for any training in hand to hand combat? I think some of you out there are instructors but I can't remember who.

OK, now that you have stopped laughing. Anybody got a serious answer?................,OE

Even with my previous comments about then knife situation, I think training in a reputable MA is a great experience that heightens awareness, and improves focus and self-discipline. Do a little research before you jump into any system and make sure you get with a reputable system and not just the "black belt" mill. Systems vary by style, traditional, grappling, non-offensive, weapons, etc. Also. discuss any injuries upfront with your instructor as you don't want to make anything worse.

[OverEasy]

Thanks for the responses!
I was afraid it I asked my doctor, he would say: "No way, are you crazy?" And if I went an asked a martial arts school, they would say: "No problem! Just sign here for the easy lifetime payment plan." I think I'll stop by one of the places I pass by and talk to them. I want to see if they can teach me something without throwing me on the floor repeatedly. Once may be too much! I read something about Krav Magna having a class for people in wheelchairs. Maybe that would be the one.
Thanks again, OE

[flintknapper]

It's pretty much agreed that a gun is not always the first or best choice for self defence?
I have a cell phone, OC spray and an assisted opening folding knife.
So, how about martial arts? To defend against a knife attack where the BG is closer than 21 feet.

Even for a martial artist, the knife situation is dicey at best. And, while I'm SURE there are those more skilled than I am, even after years of practice it is not an easy task...not at all like empty handed combat. Take a rubber or wooden knife and chalk the edge with colored carpenter's chalk. Find a friend you trust and have a little "knife fight". We used to do this as part of the MA training I was involved in. It was humbling for black belts to realize that although they could almost always outfight the unskilled empty handed, it was almost impossible for them to keep from getting "cut" as shown by the chalk.
.

[Cipher]

Even for a martial artist, the knife situation is dicey at best. And, while I'm SURE there are those more skilled than I am, even after years of practice it is not an easy task...not at all like empty handed combat. Take a rubber or wooden knife and chalk the edge with colored carpenter's chalk. Find a friend you trust and have a little "knife fight". We used to do this as part of the MA training I was involved in. It was humbling for black belts to realize that although they could almost always outfight the unskilled empty handed, it was almost impossible for them to keep from getting "cut" as shown by the chalk.

I train in Aikido and would recommend it highly. The most important aspect of Aikido is getting off the line of attack, this can buy you much needed time to get around that 21 foot rule. There are also a few techniques that will surely incapacitate most attackers without coming close to their hands. There are also a lot of pinning options that would keep the bad guy on the ground until help (LEO) arrives with very little strength on your part. Getting off the floor is great cardio, no need to loose weight ahead of time :D

The first thing you have to remember if your attacker has a knife is that you WILL get cut, it should be your "choice" on where you are going to get cut. I would gladly take a slice across the forearm if it bought me time to ready my pistol, or if it put me in a position to disable the attacker. You also have to be in the mindset of winning NO MATTER WHAT. For most people being covered in blood is a huge physcological block that will render them pretty much defenseless, even worse is when it's YOUR blood you're covered in.

What I'm about to say may upset some folks, but please don't take it the wrong way. IMHO, grappling has no place in life or death combat. You get on the ground with some guy with a knife and you have severely limited your sight radius, not to mention put yourself that much closer to the blade. Again, IMHO, I also don't feel like grappling is appropriate in a lot of street scenarios since you do not know if the BG has buddies. I'm not saying it's not useful, I've trained a bit in it, and it does work, but it wouldn't be something i relied on 100%.

In my opinion, and not just because I train in it, Aikido is one of the best arts for self defense if you aren't interested in going toe to toe with somebody. The only bad thing about Aikido is that it takes a long time to learn.

[The Annoyed Man]

It's pretty much agreed that a gun is not always the first or best choice for self defence?
I have a cell phone, OC spray and an assisted opening folding knife.
So, how about martial arts? To defend against a knife attack where the BG is closer than 21 feet.

Even for a martial artist, the knife situation is dicey at best. And, while I'm SURE there are those more skilled than I am, even after years of practice it is not an easy task...not at all like empty handed combat. Take a rubber or wooden knife and chalk the edge with colored carpenter's chalk. Find a friend you trust and have a little "knife fight". We used to do this as part of the MA training I was involved in. It was humbling for black belts to realize that although they could almost always outfight the unskilled empty handed, it was almost impossible for them to keep from getting "cut" as shown by the chalk.

My very first Karate teacher told me, if you get into a fight with a guy with a knife, just get used to the fact that you're going to get cut, no matter how good you are. Just accept it, and move on. He said if you can't do that, then you're not yet prepared to win the fight. There are things you can do to minimize the damage, such as wrapping a jacket or something around your parrying hand/forearm, but nothing is going to be 100% effective.

With that in mind, these days I prepare for that by bringing a gun to said knife fight.